A life worth living
A life worth living, a life of victory, a blessed life, a meaningful life, an abundant life, such a life is not one that is lived merely "under the sun".
A person who enjoys the abundant life, who reigns in life (regardless of the circumstances in the world), is a person who has an "above the sun" perspective of life.
He sees the Big Picture. He has a keen awareness of eternity. He understands God's heart. He thinks with a Kingdom mindset. His eyes are on the Heavenly Father and not on the earthly things. As a result, he can live the care-free, worry-free life, complain-free life, which is the abundant life, the reigning life.
This is the kind of abundant, victorious, reigning life that the apostle Paul lived.
Now, let us explore further the kind of abundant, victorious, reigning life that Paul lived:
The abundant and reigning life that Paul lived
1) Did Paul experience material lack from time to time?
Yes.
But did he struggle with any bitter sense of poverty? No at all.
Paul having tasted the goodness of His God, maintained a sense of abundance, of 'no lack', of being provided for, of being looked after.
In fact, it was during his captivity in prison that he encouraged the believers in Philippians with the following words, "Indeed I have all and abound, I am full, having received...the things sent from you, a sweet smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God. And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:18-19).
Even in prison, Paul's dignity remained intact, and he continued to enjoy contentment. It was in this context that he uttered the verse that we all love to quote, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me".
"I've learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and suffer need. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." (Philippians 4:11-13)
Paul was truly reigning in and enjoying his life.
For more thoughts on prosperity and abundance in a believer's life, read my other post Taste and see your Good God today
2) Did Paul encounter trials, tribulations and persecutions from time to time?
Yes. Numerious, varied and severe.
But did he exhibit a defeatist attitude and suffer from any sense of abandonment? No.
It was Paul who wrote, "If God is for us, who can be against us?...Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril or sword?...Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." (Rom 8:31,35,37).
I believed Paul must have enjoyed many peaceful and trouble-free days when he walked on earth, and he must have celebrated many successes and triumphs.
And during those times that he had to deal with difficulties, challenges, and apparent defeats, he did not allow his joy to be affected. He was still conscious of the Christ-wrought victory that avails forever. He still maintained the overcomer's mindset.
Therefore Paul continued to reign over circumstances and to enjoy the abundant life, even in the midst of all the trials and tribulations.
Did Paul struggle? I believe he did. But I also believe he did not focus on himself and endured the experiences as sufferings in the cold hostility of an absurd world. Instead, he focused on Christ and enjoyed the experiences as snugglings in the loving arms of a Very Good God.
3) Did Paul have to face the prospect of death, and did he experience physical death ultimately?
Yes.
But was he anxious or fearful. No.
It was Paul who proclaimed, "Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory. The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 15:55-56).
What boldness! What a victorious attitude!
When one has the assurance of eternal life, and is secure in one's right standing before God, physical death no longer stirs up dread or fear. Death's sting has been removed. Death is no longer a tragedy.
No wonder Paul could declare, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labour...for I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you" (Philippians 1:21-24).
Paul was genuinely not afraid to die. As a result, he was truly ready to live, freely and boldly. Which he did. Paul lived life abundantly and victoriously.
The abundant life comprises challenging days and not-so-challenging ones
Do bear this in mind that the New Testament epistles recorded and presented to us only the more eventful parts of Paul's life. I am sure Paul's life was not just a constant series of trials, tribulations and persecutions. He must have enjoyed many trouble-free days as well.
What makes me conclude that Paul lived an abundant and victorious life is not his health or wealth, or how peaceful and trouble free his life was. Such blessings are purchased on the Cross for us, and we should rightly appropriate them and enjoy them. But they are not the most important blessings.
What makes me conclude that Paul lived life abundantly and victoriously is the way he continued to enjoy righteousness, peace and joy regardless of the circumstances he was in.
Living life "above the sun" - living in the Kingdom of God
Jesus taught us that "The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit". (Rom 14:17)
It was also Jesus Himself who taught us to seek first the kingdom of God, instead of focusing on the things we need, for our Heavenly Father knows all our needs and wants, and He freely and generously gives to us all that is good for us, in His good time. (Mt 6:33)
Jesus also assured us that it is the Father's good pleasure to give us the kingdom. (Luke 12:32). It is God's pleasure to see you enjoy a life of righteousness, peace and joy - a life without fear of lack, a life of true freedom.
So, in closing, be encouraged to focus on the goodness of your Father's heart, and rest in the knowledge that He will not withhold any good thing from you. If He has given you His best, His most precious, His Son Jesus Christ, how will He not with Jesus, also freely give you all things?
The abundant and victorious life that Paul lived was purchased by Jesus Christ on the Cross. The same Jesus has also purchased an abundant and victorious life for you and your loved ones.
Believe right.
Focus accurately.
Do the one thing needful.
Seek first the Kingdom of God.
Sit at Jesus feet and allow Him to love you.
Allow your heart to rest in the finished work of Christ.
Let your soul prosper in the knowledge of God's grace towards you.
"Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers". (3 John 2).
As your soul continues to prosper, may you continue to reign in life and enjoy life more abundantly.
Tuesday, November 24, 2009
Taste and see your Good God today
Soul prosperity first
"Beloved, I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health, even as your souls prosper" (3 John 2)
When your soul (i.e. your mind, emotion and will) prospers, everything thing else in your life prospers as well.
As children of the Most High God, we are not waiting to be blessed, we are already blessed. We are not waiting for good days, we are living in good days, and are expecting better ones ahead.
Prosperity begets prosperity, poverty reaps poverty
We are not waiting to be prosperous, we are already prosperous. Knowing and believing this truth causes us to be able and willing to give and sow generously (of our gifts and talents, our time, our finances), which in turn, causes us to reap bountiful harvests and experience a greater measure of abundance. As a result, out of a grateful heart, we cannot help but want to give and sow even more generously. This virtuous cycle goes on and on.
On the other hand, if someone does not believe that he is rich, he will most likely scrim and save everything he has. He will withhold from giving freely to others. Because he thinks his resources are limited, he cuts down on sowing As a result, he sabotages his future harvests - in the areas of his finances, his friendships or his overall fruitfulness in life.
So, paradoxically, the more he scrims and saves, and the less he gives and sows, the more poverty and lack he perceives and experiences. Soul poverty reaps poverty in other areas in life.
Prosperous when in possession of nothing
Remember the example of Joseph? When Joseph was a slave in Egypt, and had nothing, the Bible describes him as being successful, and says that everything he did prospered. (Genesis 39:2-3).
Joseph did not have a smooth-sailing life. He went through the pit and the prison, before he finally ended up in the palace. But do we see him complain and murmur? Do we see him discontent and bitter? Look at how he was always concious of the Lord's presence, and therefore enjoyed blessings after blessings, regardless of his circumstances.
Good days for Joseph were not defined by where he was or how much possession and power he had. Good days for Joseph were defined by the friendship and faithfulness of the Good God who was always with him.
Seeking after the kingdom of God which is righteousness, peace and joy
Joseph did not seek after earthly riches and material comfort. He did not seek after riches and honour. He sought after and enjoyed God. He sought after and enjoyed the kingdom of God. He sought after and enjoyed righteousness, peace and joy.
And goodness and mercy of God followed Joseph all the days of his life.
(Note that material riches and honour before men did NOT follow Joseph ALL the days of his life - he struggled with material lack and endured shame during parts of his life. But the goodness and mercy of God did follow after Joseph all the days of his life. Joseph was a blessed and prosperous man throughout his life not because of earthly riches and man-given honour, but because of the goodness and mercy of His Good God. And when God's goodness and mercy chase after you, do you think you need to worry about chasing after earthly riches and honour?)
See things through God's eyes. Renew your mind with God's truth. Speak forth life and peace. Know that you are already blessed in Christ, appreciate your blessednesses, and you will see more and more of God's blessings manifest in your life.
Loving life and seeing good days
"He who would love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking deceit. Let him turn away from evil and do good. Let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers" (1 Peter 3:10-12)
"Oh taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who trusts in Him!...those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing. Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry" (Psalm 34:8,10,12-15)
You have a Good God who loves you and blesses you more than you could ask or imagine. Your path is getting brighter and brighter. You are enjoying a good life that is getting better and better.
Turn away from the evil lies of the devil that tell you otherwise. Refrain from speaking his lies.
Good days are here, enjoy them now
Confess instead God's promises and God's truths. Speak forth your life and peace. And rest in the finished work of Christ that has given you everlasting righteousness. You are righteous and you are blessed! And you don't have to wait for good days to come. Good days have already come!
Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." (Luke 4:18,19).
And it is written, 'For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, NOW is the acceptable time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation' (2 Cor 6:2)
Appreciate and enjoy your good days now.
Taste and see your Good God today.
"Beloved, I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health, even as your souls prosper" (3 John 2)
When your soul (i.e. your mind, emotion and will) prospers, everything thing else in your life prospers as well.
As children of the Most High God, we are not waiting to be blessed, we are already blessed. We are not waiting for good days, we are living in good days, and are expecting better ones ahead.
Prosperity begets prosperity, poverty reaps poverty
We are not waiting to be prosperous, we are already prosperous. Knowing and believing this truth causes us to be able and willing to give and sow generously (of our gifts and talents, our time, our finances), which in turn, causes us to reap bountiful harvests and experience a greater measure of abundance. As a result, out of a grateful heart, we cannot help but want to give and sow even more generously. This virtuous cycle goes on and on.
On the other hand, if someone does not believe that he is rich, he will most likely scrim and save everything he has. He will withhold from giving freely to others. Because he thinks his resources are limited, he cuts down on sowing As a result, he sabotages his future harvests - in the areas of his finances, his friendships or his overall fruitfulness in life.
So, paradoxically, the more he scrims and saves, and the less he gives and sows, the more poverty and lack he perceives and experiences. Soul poverty reaps poverty in other areas in life.
Prosperous when in possession of nothing
Remember the example of Joseph? When Joseph was a slave in Egypt, and had nothing, the Bible describes him as being successful, and says that everything he did prospered. (Genesis 39:2-3).
Joseph did not have a smooth-sailing life. He went through the pit and the prison, before he finally ended up in the palace. But do we see him complain and murmur? Do we see him discontent and bitter? Look at how he was always concious of the Lord's presence, and therefore enjoyed blessings after blessings, regardless of his circumstances.
Good days for Joseph were not defined by where he was or how much possession and power he had. Good days for Joseph were defined by the friendship and faithfulness of the Good God who was always with him.
Seeking after the kingdom of God which is righteousness, peace and joy
Joseph did not seek after earthly riches and material comfort. He did not seek after riches and honour. He sought after and enjoyed God. He sought after and enjoyed the kingdom of God. He sought after and enjoyed righteousness, peace and joy.
And goodness and mercy of God followed Joseph all the days of his life.
(Note that material riches and honour before men did NOT follow Joseph ALL the days of his life - he struggled with material lack and endured shame during parts of his life. But the goodness and mercy of God did follow after Joseph all the days of his life. Joseph was a blessed and prosperous man throughout his life not because of earthly riches and man-given honour, but because of the goodness and mercy of His Good God. And when God's goodness and mercy chase after you, do you think you need to worry about chasing after earthly riches and honour?)
See things through God's eyes. Renew your mind with God's truth. Speak forth life and peace. Know that you are already blessed in Christ, appreciate your blessednesses, and you will see more and more of God's blessings manifest in your life.
Loving life and seeing good days
"He who would love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking deceit. Let him turn away from evil and do good. Let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers" (1 Peter 3:10-12)
"Oh taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who trusts in Him!...those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing. Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry" (Psalm 34:8,10,12-15)
You have a Good God who loves you and blesses you more than you could ask or imagine. Your path is getting brighter and brighter. You are enjoying a good life that is getting better and better.
Turn away from the evil lies of the devil that tell you otherwise. Refrain from speaking his lies.
Good days are here, enjoy them now
Confess instead God's promises and God's truths. Speak forth your life and peace. And rest in the finished work of Christ that has given you everlasting righteousness. You are righteous and you are blessed! And you don't have to wait for good days to come. Good days have already come!
Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." (Luke 4:18,19).
And it is written, 'For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, NOW is the acceptable time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation' (2 Cor 6:2)
Appreciate and enjoy your good days now.
Taste and see your Good God today.
Saturday, November 21, 2009
How do we teach righteousness - right standing, right doing, both?
Below are extracts of exchanges that took place in Stanley's facebook page in response to his blog posting titled "Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind" http://thelogicalchristian.blogspot.com/2009/11/close-encounters-of-third-kind.html
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Stanley wrote:
There is no such thing as "the process of making you righteous"; you are either righteous or not righteous ie. you either have a right standing before God or you don't.
C wrote:
Why did Paul wrote the following verses if growing in righteousness is not a process?
"PUT to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the WRATH of God is COMING. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you MUST RID yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, CLOTHE yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."
Lip Kee wrote:
We are all for righteous acts by Christians. We delight in witnessing right behavior among believers.
I suppose we differ only when it comes to HOW we can or should cause or help or encourage ourselves and our fellow siblings in Christ to manifest the righteous acts that glorify our Lord.
Some of us believe that we should focus on INSTRUCTING fellow believers on the what-to-do's and the what-not-to- do's. So when such among us read Col 3:5-14, we see a list of instructions and commands: YOU must put to death...YOU must RID yourselves of...YOU should not lie...YOU are to clothe yourselves with....YOU are to forgive
Some of us, on the other hand, believe that we should focus on AFFIRMING ourselves and our fellow brothers and sisters of our right-standing before (and intimacy with) our loving Father and our identity in Christ. Therefore, when reading the same passage, we would choose to read it in its wider context (i.e. to start from Colossians chapter 1, or at least from Colossians chapter 3 verse 1 onwards), and we see affirmations and promises: you were raised with CHRIST...your life is hidden in CHRIST with God...when CHRIST who is your life appears, then you also will appear with HIM in glory, THEREFORE put to death...rid yourselves of...do not lie...; as the elect of God, HOLY AND BELOVED, put on...even as CHRIST forgave you, so also forgive.
I used to belong to the first group, but I've switched to the second, and I intend to stay put. I believe the power to bear fruit (act righteously) does not come from focusing one's attention on the fruit, but by putting one's attention on the root (right standing before God in Christ).
For he who lacks these things (faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love) is short-sighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:9)
According to Peter, the reason why a believer is not fruitful and does not exhibit godly behavior and righteous acts is because he has lost sight of or is ignorant of the precious truth that he is a forgiven person.
If we wish to see more manifestation of godly behavior and righteous acts in the Church and in the communities we live in, we would do well to relentlessly preach the good news of God's forgiveness, to share the life-liberating message of no condemnation, and to build one another up in the teaching of righteousness (right-standing before God because of Christ's work on the cross).
My 2-cent worth. :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stanley wrote:
There is no such thing as "the process of making you righteous"; you are either righteous or not righteous ie. you either have a right standing before God or you don't.
C wrote:
Why did Paul wrote the following verses if growing in righteousness is not a process?
"PUT to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the WRATH of God is COMING. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you MUST RID yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, CLOTHE yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."
Lip Kee wrote:
We are all for righteous acts by Christians. We delight in witnessing right behavior among believers.
I suppose we differ only when it comes to HOW we can or should cause or help or encourage ourselves and our fellow siblings in Christ to manifest the righteous acts that glorify our Lord.
Some of us believe that we should focus on INSTRUCTING fellow believers on the what-to-do's and the what-not-to- do's. So when such among us read Col 3:5-14, we see a list of instructions and commands: YOU must put to death...YOU must RID yourselves of...YOU should not lie...YOU are to clothe yourselves with....YOU are to forgive
Some of us, on the other hand, believe that we should focus on AFFIRMING ourselves and our fellow brothers and sisters of our right-standing before (and intimacy with) our loving Father and our identity in Christ. Therefore, when reading the same passage, we would choose to read it in its wider context (i.e. to start from Colossians chapter 1, or at least from Colossians chapter 3 verse 1 onwards), and we see affirmations and promises: you were raised with CHRIST...your life is hidden in CHRIST with God...when CHRIST who is your life appears, then you also will appear with HIM in glory, THEREFORE put to death...rid yourselves of...do not lie...; as the elect of God, HOLY AND BELOVED, put on...even as CHRIST forgave you, so also forgive.
I used to belong to the first group, but I've switched to the second, and I intend to stay put. I believe the power to bear fruit (act righteously) does not come from focusing one's attention on the fruit, but by putting one's attention on the root (right standing before God in Christ).
For he who lacks these things (faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love) is short-sighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:9)
According to Peter, the reason why a believer is not fruitful and does not exhibit godly behavior and righteous acts is because he has lost sight of or is ignorant of the precious truth that he is a forgiven person.
If we wish to see more manifestation of godly behavior and righteous acts in the Church and in the communities we live in, we would do well to relentlessly preach the good news of God's forgiveness, to share the life-liberating message of no condemnation, and to build one another up in the teaching of righteousness (right-standing before God because of Christ's work on the cross).
My 2-cent worth. :-)
Friday, November 20, 2009
On Christian discipleship - a discussion
The exchanges below follow those that took place in an earlier posting titled "Are Christians Sinners?": http://livelearnloveleavealegacy.blogspot.com/2009/11/are-christians-sinners-discussion.html
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C wrote:
Thank you, Lip Kee. You summed it up very well. The emphasis on the all-sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness, his saving work for us and the assurance of our salvation is indeed commendable. Like wise, I agree that we should address and describe believers in more affirming, encouraging and assuring ways.
However, it seems that those who advocate this approach has the tendency to ignore Christian discipleship which is a legitimate aspect of holiness. I may be wrong, but they hardly mention if ever, sanctification, obedience, feeling remorse for one’s sins, the pursuit of righteousness, training in righteousness, holiness, good works, the mortification of sin, endurance and sufferings.
Instead there is ambiguous language in terms like sonship, resting in faith, you're as righteous as Christ is, the good news about Jesus Christ (making the gospel synonymous with the whole counsel of God) and so on. They teach that God is no longer angry with believers when they sin and fails to distinguish between juridical and filial displeasure. They allude that if a believer is concerned about sin, obedience, or ongoing repentance, or good works, then he has not fully grasp the all sufficiency of God’s grace.
“Yet what we SUFFER NOW is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also GROAN, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from SIN and SUFFERING. We, too, WAIT with EAGER HOPE for the day when God will give us our FULL RIGHTS as his adopted children including the new bodies he has promised us.” (Romans 8:15-23)
Lip Kee replied:
Hi C,
Having read your latest comment, I felt it would be appropriate for me to provide some response.
I believe I understand where you are coming from when you wrote: "it seems that those who advocate this approach (of emphasising on the all-sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness, his saving work for us and the assurance of our salvation) has the tendency to ignore Christian discipleship which is a legitimate aspect of holiness."... Read more
First of all, I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christian discipleship is a legitimate aspect of our walk of faith.
I acknowledge that there are some among us who may be less mature in the faith, and whose understanding of Biblical truths may be somewhat superficial, and as a result, we may appear to be ignorant or even dismissive of certain so-called "traditions" and "traditional ideas". Nonethelss, I believe most of us agree that discipleship and discipline are necessary and important.
I believe a Christian who ignores discipleship is neglecting his spiritual health and impeding his personal growth. A church deficient in the aspect of discipleship must be, in my opinion, a church that is (or will be) unstable and unsustainable.
As to how Christian discipleship is taught or inculcated, I believe each church has its own unique approach. For instance, in the Presbyterian church I grew up in, "discipleship" and "discipline" were words I frequently read and heard in the church, and the related conepts of which I was systematically taught in the Sunday schools, Bible study classes and training seminars I attended; whereas in my current church (which I've been a member of for the past seven years), I have been subject to what I felt were relevant and impactful teachings on discipleship and discipline, even though the words "discipleship" and "discipline" are not as frequently and explicitly read and heard.
It is not for me to say which is the better approach. Suffice to say, I have learned much from both and am thankful.
C, you wrote: "they hardly mention if ever, sanctification, obedience, feeling remorse for one’s sins, the pursuit of righteousness, training in righteousness, holiness, good works, the mortification of sin, endurance and sufferings...They allude that if a believer is concerned about sin, obedience, or ongoing repentance, or good works, then he has not fully grasp the all sufficiency of God’s grace..."
Similar to my comment on "Christian discipleship" above, I believe even though we may differ in the way and the frequency we use those exact words, most, if not all of us are agreed that sanctification, obedience, the pursuit of righteousness, training in righteousness, endurance, ongoing repentance, and good works etc. are all important aspects of our Christian life, our faith walk.
We are not negligent in reminding and encouraging one another: to set ourselves apart in Christ and be blameless before men in the world (sanctification); to constantly renew our mind with the Word of God and live a Spirit-led life (obedience); to fix our eyes on our Lord Jesus Christ and be transformed into His image (the pursuit of righteousness); to understand our utter deprivation and helplessness without Him and our total dependence on Him for the ability and willingness to live right (training in righteousness); to perservere and not give up hoping because of His faithfulness (endurance); to continually turn our mind away from the world and its sins to the Lord and His saving grace (ongoing repentance); to respond to God's love and gifts by loving and giving to others (good works).
I observe the leaders and friends whom I worship together, serve, pray and fellowship with in church, I see how they live their lives (both inside and outside of the church). They endeavor their best to walk out lives that are Christ-centered, church-edifying and God-glorying.
Like I said before, there are (and there will probably always be) some among us who are somewhat superficial and not so mature. But I pray and trust that we will grow up and grow well.
As for "sin" and "suffering", my view is that these themes are being covered regularly, extensively and repeatedly in the church, when we receive in-depth teachings on:
- our Saviour (who saves us from sin); and
- the Cross (on which our Lord endured sufferings unimaginable, and by which we have hope to endure through and triumph over our own sufferings).
I hope this helps to address some of your concerns. Shalom. :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C wrote:
Thank you, Lip Kee. You summed it up very well. The emphasis on the all-sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness, his saving work for us and the assurance of our salvation is indeed commendable. Like wise, I agree that we should address and describe believers in more affirming, encouraging and assuring ways.
However, it seems that those who advocate this approach has the tendency to ignore Christian discipleship which is a legitimate aspect of holiness. I may be wrong, but they hardly mention if ever, sanctification, obedience, feeling remorse for one’s sins, the pursuit of righteousness, training in righteousness, holiness, good works, the mortification of sin, endurance and sufferings.
Instead there is ambiguous language in terms like sonship, resting in faith, you're as righteous as Christ is, the good news about Jesus Christ (making the gospel synonymous with the whole counsel of God) and so on. They teach that God is no longer angry with believers when they sin and fails to distinguish between juridical and filial displeasure. They allude that if a believer is concerned about sin, obedience, or ongoing repentance, or good works, then he has not fully grasp the all sufficiency of God’s grace.
“Yet what we SUFFER NOW is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also GROAN, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from SIN and SUFFERING. We, too, WAIT with EAGER HOPE for the day when God will give us our FULL RIGHTS as his adopted children including the new bodies he has promised us.” (Romans 8:15-23)
Lip Kee replied:
Hi C,
Having read your latest comment, I felt it would be appropriate for me to provide some response.
I believe I understand where you are coming from when you wrote: "it seems that those who advocate this approach (of emphasising on the all-sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness, his saving work for us and the assurance of our salvation) has the tendency to ignore Christian discipleship which is a legitimate aspect of holiness."... Read more
First of all, I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christian discipleship is a legitimate aspect of our walk of faith.
I acknowledge that there are some among us who may be less mature in the faith, and whose understanding of Biblical truths may be somewhat superficial, and as a result, we may appear to be ignorant or even dismissive of certain so-called "traditions" and "traditional ideas". Nonethelss, I believe most of us agree that discipleship and discipline are necessary and important.
I believe a Christian who ignores discipleship is neglecting his spiritual health and impeding his personal growth. A church deficient in the aspect of discipleship must be, in my opinion, a church that is (or will be) unstable and unsustainable.
As to how Christian discipleship is taught or inculcated, I believe each church has its own unique approach. For instance, in the Presbyterian church I grew up in, "discipleship" and "discipline" were words I frequently read and heard in the church, and the related conepts of which I was systematically taught in the Sunday schools, Bible study classes and training seminars I attended; whereas in my current church (which I've been a member of for the past seven years), I have been subject to what I felt were relevant and impactful teachings on discipleship and discipline, even though the words "discipleship" and "discipline" are not as frequently and explicitly read and heard.
It is not for me to say which is the better approach. Suffice to say, I have learned much from both and am thankful.
C, you wrote: "they hardly mention if ever, sanctification, obedience, feeling remorse for one’s sins, the pursuit of righteousness, training in righteousness, holiness, good works, the mortification of sin, endurance and sufferings...They allude that if a believer is concerned about sin, obedience, or ongoing repentance, or good works, then he has not fully grasp the all sufficiency of God’s grace..."
Similar to my comment on "Christian discipleship" above, I believe even though we may differ in the way and the frequency we use those exact words, most, if not all of us are agreed that sanctification, obedience, the pursuit of righteousness, training in righteousness, endurance, ongoing repentance, and good works etc. are all important aspects of our Christian life, our faith walk.
We are not negligent in reminding and encouraging one another: to set ourselves apart in Christ and be blameless before men in the world (sanctification); to constantly renew our mind with the Word of God and live a Spirit-led life (obedience); to fix our eyes on our Lord Jesus Christ and be transformed into His image (the pursuit of righteousness); to understand our utter deprivation and helplessness without Him and our total dependence on Him for the ability and willingness to live right (training in righteousness); to perservere and not give up hoping because of His faithfulness (endurance); to continually turn our mind away from the world and its sins to the Lord and His saving grace (ongoing repentance); to respond to God's love and gifts by loving and giving to others (good works).
I observe the leaders and friends whom I worship together, serve, pray and fellowship with in church, I see how they live their lives (both inside and outside of the church). They endeavor their best to walk out lives that are Christ-centered, church-edifying and God-glorying.
Like I said before, there are (and there will probably always be) some among us who are somewhat superficial and not so mature. But I pray and trust that we will grow up and grow well.
As for "sin" and "suffering", my view is that these themes are being covered regularly, extensively and repeatedly in the church, when we receive in-depth teachings on:
- our Saviour (who saves us from sin); and
- the Cross (on which our Lord endured sufferings unimaginable, and by which we have hope to endure through and triumph over our own sufferings).
I hope this helps to address some of your concerns. Shalom. :-)
Are Christians sinners? - a discussion
The exchanges below follow those that took place in an earlier posting titled "Should Christians follow Paul's example and call ourselves sinners?": http://livelearnloveleavealegacy.blogspot.com/2009/11/should-christians-follow-pauls-example.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C wrote:
Yes, Stanley. Christ has paid the penalty for ALL our sins. Yes, even when we sin, we are still righteous in God's eyes. But where did you get the idea that He no longer see us as sinners? Why all these warnings in the bible? For example,
"We must ALL stand before Christ to be JUDGE. We will each receive whatever we deserve for good or evil we have DONE in this earthly body." ( 2 Cor. 5:10)
"It is God's will that you should be sanctified..The Lord will PUNISH men for all such sins as we already told you and warned you. For God did NOT call us to be IMPURE, but to live a holy life." (1 Thess 4:3-7).
What is wrong for God to see us as righteous because of Christ's act and to see us as sinners for what we really are?
Why cant we call a believer who sins a sinner (James 5:8) ? What is wrong to admit that although one is righteous in the eyes of God, one is also a sinner if one commits a sin?
In the biography or autobiography of great saints, they say towards the end of their lives, they are still sinners. The reason is that as they get closer to God, they become more aware of their sins.
Most unbelievers live in darkness and because their conscience is dead, they are not aware of their sins. As we grow closer to the Light, it will reveal our more of our hidden sins, motives and agendas. We shall out of remorse and Godly sorrow that leads us to repentance.
The more we know we are sinners, the more closer we will draw near to God. It sounds like a paradox, and like most great christian truths, they are paradoxical.
Stanley wrote:
"What is wrong for God to see us as righteous because of Christ's act and to see us as sinners for what we really are.?"
Well, C, I guess you belong to Blaise Pascal's "the righteous, who believe themselves sinners". As for me (and I think Lip Kee as well), I belong to "the righteous, who believe themselves righteous" BUT no worries, you and I will still meet in heaven, just that our journey there will be entirely different experiences ;-)
Lip Kee wrote:
To find common grounds on which to facilitate our communication and enhance mutual understanding among us, I read through all the comments again, and my comments are as follows:
1. For Stanley, the term "Christian" and "sinner" are used to define the spiritual IDENTITY of a person.
A "Christian" is someone who believes in and accepts the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, saved from the prison called "sin", and born again as a child of the most high God. The IDENTITY of a believer, a saved person, a Christian, is that of "the righteousness of God in Christ" (Rom 5:21), even if he were to fail and fall, and commit sinful acts.... Read more.
Does a Christian still have the flesh in him? Does sin in the flesh have an influence over the believer? Is it possible for a child of God to still commit sins? Yes, yes, and yes. But he remains forever a born again child of God. He cannot "un-born" himself from God's family.
In contrast, a "sinner" is an unbelieving, Christ-less, unsaved person who belongs to the tribe of the first Adam and has yet to be reborn into God's family. The IDENTITY of an unsaved person remains that of a "sinner", regardless of how saintly he behaves, and how many good works he has done.
Stanley believes that the real IDENTITY of a Christian is found in the last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ, and not in the first Adam. As born-again children of God, our true IDENTITY is found in the Spirit (the supernatural), not in the flesh (the natural).
Since we are taught in the Bible to walk NOT by sight (i.e. to perceive and live naturally, to look to ourselves and depend on our self-efforts) but by faith (i.e. to perceive and live super-naturally, to look to Jesus and depend on His grace), we are to see our IDENTITY in Christ, in the Spirit, and not in our humanity, in the natural.
I believe it is in the above sense that Stanley asserts that a Christian (a child of God) can never become a sinner (a non child of God) and should therefore not be addressed as such.
2. For C, the term "sinner" simply describes a person based on his actions and deeds. The term "sinner" does not so much define the identity of a person as it DESCRIBES THE DEEDS performed by him.
Therefore, when a person, regardless of whether he is a believer or an unbeliever, commits a sinful deed, he is described as a sinner.
Here, we are NOT talking about the person's identiy. His identity as a beloved child of God remains intact - he is still fully forgiven, still completely accepted, still perfectly righteous IN CHRIST.
Nevertheless, when seen and described in his humanity, in the natural state (in contrast to the spiritual state which is IN CHRIST), this person is indeed someone who has done wrong and fallen short - a doer of sin, a sinner.
In the sense above, I would agree with C that it is not inappropriate to use the term "sinner" to describe a born again believer.
3. Personally, I think it all boils down to the context in which and the meaning to which we attribute the word "sinner" when we use it. I believe when the context of the usage and our intended meaning are made clear, we will find it easier to appreciate each other, and not disagree with each other so much. :-)
As I've stated in point 2 above, I don't object to the use of the word "sinner" to describe born-again believers. Nevertheless, my personal conviction and strong preference is to use words such as "beloved", "accepted", "Royal Priesthood", "the righteousness of God" etc. to address my fellow siblings in Christ and myself.
I find it can be quite confusing to call a believer the righteousness of God in one breath, and then in the next breath, call him a sinner.
But there is a way out. To avoid any confusion and misunderstanding, we can say, "IN and of ourselves, we are but filthy and sorry sinners, but thanks be to God, IN CHRIST our lovely Savior, we are the precious children of our Abba, fully forgiven and greatly loved by Him. We are the righteousnes of God! :-)
Shalom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C wrote:
Yes, Stanley. Christ has paid the penalty for ALL our sins. Yes, even when we sin, we are still righteous in God's eyes. But where did you get the idea that He no longer see us as sinners? Why all these warnings in the bible? For example,
"We must ALL stand before Christ to be JUDGE. We will each receive whatever we deserve for good or evil we have DONE in this earthly body." ( 2 Cor. 5:10)
"It is God's will that you should be sanctified..The Lord will PUNISH men for all such sins as we already told you and warned you. For God did NOT call us to be IMPURE, but to live a holy life." (1 Thess 4:3-7).
What is wrong for God to see us as righteous because of Christ's act and to see us as sinners for what we really are?
Why cant we call a believer who sins a sinner (James 5:8) ? What is wrong to admit that although one is righteous in the eyes of God, one is also a sinner if one commits a sin?
In the biography or autobiography of great saints, they say towards the end of their lives, they are still sinners. The reason is that as they get closer to God, they become more aware of their sins.
Most unbelievers live in darkness and because their conscience is dead, they are not aware of their sins. As we grow closer to the Light, it will reveal our more of our hidden sins, motives and agendas. We shall out of remorse and Godly sorrow that leads us to repentance.
The more we know we are sinners, the more closer we will draw near to God. It sounds like a paradox, and like most great christian truths, they are paradoxical.
Stanley wrote:
"What is wrong for God to see us as righteous because of Christ's act and to see us as sinners for what we really are.?"
Well, C, I guess you belong to Blaise Pascal's "the righteous, who believe themselves sinners". As for me (and I think Lip Kee as well), I belong to "the righteous, who believe themselves righteous" BUT no worries, you and I will still meet in heaven, just that our journey there will be entirely different experiences ;-)
Lip Kee wrote:
To find common grounds on which to facilitate our communication and enhance mutual understanding among us, I read through all the comments again, and my comments are as follows:
1. For Stanley, the term "Christian" and "sinner" are used to define the spiritual IDENTITY of a person.
A "Christian" is someone who believes in and accepts the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, saved from the prison called "sin", and born again as a child of the most high God. The IDENTITY of a believer, a saved person, a Christian, is that of "the righteousness of God in Christ" (Rom 5:21), even if he were to fail and fall, and commit sinful acts.... Read more.
Does a Christian still have the flesh in him? Does sin in the flesh have an influence over the believer? Is it possible for a child of God to still commit sins? Yes, yes, and yes. But he remains forever a born again child of God. He cannot "un-born" himself from God's family.
In contrast, a "sinner" is an unbelieving, Christ-less, unsaved person who belongs to the tribe of the first Adam and has yet to be reborn into God's family. The IDENTITY of an unsaved person remains that of a "sinner", regardless of how saintly he behaves, and how many good works he has done.
Stanley believes that the real IDENTITY of a Christian is found in the last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ, and not in the first Adam. As born-again children of God, our true IDENTITY is found in the Spirit (the supernatural), not in the flesh (the natural).
Since we are taught in the Bible to walk NOT by sight (i.e. to perceive and live naturally, to look to ourselves and depend on our self-efforts) but by faith (i.e. to perceive and live super-naturally, to look to Jesus and depend on His grace), we are to see our IDENTITY in Christ, in the Spirit, and not in our humanity, in the natural.
I believe it is in the above sense that Stanley asserts that a Christian (a child of God) can never become a sinner (a non child of God) and should therefore not be addressed as such.
2. For C, the term "sinner" simply describes a person based on his actions and deeds. The term "sinner" does not so much define the identity of a person as it DESCRIBES THE DEEDS performed by him.
Therefore, when a person, regardless of whether he is a believer or an unbeliever, commits a sinful deed, he is described as a sinner.
Here, we are NOT talking about the person's identiy. His identity as a beloved child of God remains intact - he is still fully forgiven, still completely accepted, still perfectly righteous IN CHRIST.
Nevertheless, when seen and described in his humanity, in the natural state (in contrast to the spiritual state which is IN CHRIST), this person is indeed someone who has done wrong and fallen short - a doer of sin, a sinner.
In the sense above, I would agree with C that it is not inappropriate to use the term "sinner" to describe a born again believer.
3. Personally, I think it all boils down to the context in which and the meaning to which we attribute the word "sinner" when we use it. I believe when the context of the usage and our intended meaning are made clear, we will find it easier to appreciate each other, and not disagree with each other so much. :-)
As I've stated in point 2 above, I don't object to the use of the word "sinner" to describe born-again believers. Nevertheless, my personal conviction and strong preference is to use words such as "beloved", "accepted", "Royal Priesthood", "the righteousness of God" etc. to address my fellow siblings in Christ and myself.
I find it can be quite confusing to call a believer the righteousness of God in one breath, and then in the next breath, call him a sinner.
But there is a way out. To avoid any confusion and misunderstanding, we can say, "IN and of ourselves, we are but filthy and sorry sinners, but thanks be to God, IN CHRIST our lovely Savior, we are the precious children of our Abba, fully forgiven and greatly loved by Him. We are the righteousnes of God! :-)
Shalom
Should Christians follow Paul's example and call ourselves sinners? - a discussion
The exchanges below follow those that took place in an earlier posting titlted "Teaching personal responsibility in church": http://livelearnloveleavealegacy.blogspot.com/2009/11/teaching-personal-responsibility-in.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C wrote:
Hi Lip Kee, your interpretation of 1 Timothy 1:15 is that Paul was speaking of himself in the natural, in the flesh, NOT of himself in Christ, in the Spirit.
So it seems that there are two forms of speaking for believers, one in the flesh, the other in the Spirit. A kind of dualism bordering on split personality when one can speak in the flesh at ... Read moreone moment, and at another moment, speak in the Spirit.
Why cant we just accept PLAINLY what the text says, " Here is a TRUSTWORTHY saying that deserves ACCEPTANCE : Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I AM the WORST? Why force an unnatural meaning into the text?
Lip Kee replied:
Hi C, I believe it was Paul himself who spoke about the "dualism" or "split personality" in Romans 7. In particular verses 17 to 20, where he wrote, "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find...Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
Seems to me Paul was having a serious case of "split personality", don't you think so?
Paul went on and exclaimed, "O wretched man that I am!", but praise God he did not stop there. To the question, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?", Paul's answer was, "I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom 7:24-25).... Read more
In Rom 7, Paul was talking about himself in the natural, in the flesh. Then from Rom 8 onwards, Paul wrote about the life in the Spirit, in Christ: a wonderful life that begins with "no condemnation" (Rom 8:1), ends with "no seperation from the love of God" (Rom 8:38-39), and in between, the receiving the Spirit of Sonship by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father" (Rom 8:15); the assurance that "If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom 8:31); the promise of "how shall God not with Jesus also freely give us all things" (Rom 8:32); and the proclaimation that "in all these things, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us" (Rom 8:37). What a gloriously victorious life in the Spirit, and what a stark contrast to defeated and helpless life in the fresh.
It seems to me the apostle Paul was the one who legitimise the "dualism" or "split personality" of a Christian's life. That being the case, I don't think my interpretation of 1 Tim 1:15 is "forced".
I hope I am making sense to you. Shalom. :-)
C wrote:
Hi Lip Kee, what you said make sense. However, in the context of Romans 7:14-25, Paul makes it CLEAR that he is STRUGGLING WITH SIN.
He elaborates in Galatians 5: 16-18, "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in CONFLICT with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."
Having said that, that does not meant that Paul is speaking in the natural (flesh) in Romans 7 and speaking in the Spirit in Romans 8.
If we take your approach of reading the Bible, we will always have to guess whether Paul is speaking in the flesh or speaking in the Spirit in all the things he wrote. Thus, if a particular verse does not fit in to our theology, we can easily dismiss it or say that Paul is speaking in the flesh.
This is what you did as you interpret Paul as speaking in the flesh in 1 Tim 1:15 when the plain reading of the verse says that Paul says " I AM chief of the Sinners." He did not say or even infer that he is speaking in the natural ( flesh).
Lip Kee replied:
Based on my little knowledge and limited wisdom, I am convinced that in Rom 7 Paul is talking about life in the flesh, and in Rom 8 he is talking about life in the Spirit. I also feel comfortable with my interpretation that Paul is talking about himself in the flesh in 1 Tim 1:15.
I don't insist that others should accept my views on those passages of Scripture. If anyone were to find my sharing helpful, take it and use it to the praise of God. If not, just throw it away or ignore it. Afterall, I am no Bible scholar or theologian. :-)... Read more
Now, regarding the verse in James 4:7-8: "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
I read through the entire book of James a couple of times and in different versions this morning. I realised that the letter is meant to address a range of issues involving several different groups of people within "twelve tribes scattered among the nations". A portion of the letter was directed at the persecuted who were undergoing trials; a portion to those who apparently had anger management issues and were undisciplined in the way they spoke with one another; another portion to those who practiced favoritism in church; another portion to people who did not walk the talk and were lacking in good works; another portion to those who presumed to be teachers but were unwise in their speech and stirred up controversies; another portin to those who indulged in their pleasures; another to brothers who slandered one another; another those who boost in their future plans for profit; another to the rich oppressors, another to a group of apparently poor and long-suffering people; and another to those who were in trouble and sick.
In James 4:8, when James used the word "sinners", it is possible that he was addressing a certain group or a few groups of believers in the churches. At the same time, it is also not unthinkable that James might be addressing the unbelievers among the group(s) of people.
Even if we were to assume that there were no non-Christians/unbelievers among the churches in "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations", and that James used the term "sinners" to address the believers, I believe he meant it in the way of "you who committed sinful acts" (in reference to their deeds) rather than "you who are unforgiven and unrighteous" (in reference to their IDENTITY, their relationships with the Lord).
In any case, my personal view is that the two verses in 1 Tim 1:15 and James 4:8 do not firmly or in any way establish a case/ an example for us to follow in terms of how we should identify, address or describe ourselves and our fellow believers.
I find the ways the writers of the New Testament identify, address and describe believers are mostly (if not always) affirming, encouraging and assuring, and I intend to follow that pattern.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C wrote:
Hi Lip Kee, your interpretation of 1 Timothy 1:15 is that Paul was speaking of himself in the natural, in the flesh, NOT of himself in Christ, in the Spirit.
So it seems that there are two forms of speaking for believers, one in the flesh, the other in the Spirit. A kind of dualism bordering on split personality when one can speak in the flesh at ... Read moreone moment, and at another moment, speak in the Spirit.
Why cant we just accept PLAINLY what the text says, " Here is a TRUSTWORTHY saying that deserves ACCEPTANCE : Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I AM the WORST? Why force an unnatural meaning into the text?
Lip Kee replied:
Hi C, I believe it was Paul himself who spoke about the "dualism" or "split personality" in Romans 7. In particular verses 17 to 20, where he wrote, "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find...Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
Seems to me Paul was having a serious case of "split personality", don't you think so?
Paul went on and exclaimed, "O wretched man that I am!", but praise God he did not stop there. To the question, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?", Paul's answer was, "I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom 7:24-25).... Read more
In Rom 7, Paul was talking about himself in the natural, in the flesh. Then from Rom 8 onwards, Paul wrote about the life in the Spirit, in Christ: a wonderful life that begins with "no condemnation" (Rom 8:1), ends with "no seperation from the love of God" (Rom 8:38-39), and in between, the receiving the Spirit of Sonship by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father" (Rom 8:15); the assurance that "If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom 8:31); the promise of "how shall God not with Jesus also freely give us all things" (Rom 8:32); and the proclaimation that "in all these things, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us" (Rom 8:37). What a gloriously victorious life in the Spirit, and what a stark contrast to defeated and helpless life in the fresh.
It seems to me the apostle Paul was the one who legitimise the "dualism" or "split personality" of a Christian's life. That being the case, I don't think my interpretation of 1 Tim 1:15 is "forced".
I hope I am making sense to you. Shalom. :-)
C wrote:
Hi Lip Kee, what you said make sense. However, in the context of Romans 7:14-25, Paul makes it CLEAR that he is STRUGGLING WITH SIN.
He elaborates in Galatians 5: 16-18, "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in CONFLICT with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."
Having said that, that does not meant that Paul is speaking in the natural (flesh) in Romans 7 and speaking in the Spirit in Romans 8.
If we take your approach of reading the Bible, we will always have to guess whether Paul is speaking in the flesh or speaking in the Spirit in all the things he wrote. Thus, if a particular verse does not fit in to our theology, we can easily dismiss it or say that Paul is speaking in the flesh.
This is what you did as you interpret Paul as speaking in the flesh in 1 Tim 1:15 when the plain reading of the verse says that Paul says " I AM chief of the Sinners." He did not say or even infer that he is speaking in the natural ( flesh).
Lip Kee replied:
Based on my little knowledge and limited wisdom, I am convinced that in Rom 7 Paul is talking about life in the flesh, and in Rom 8 he is talking about life in the Spirit. I also feel comfortable with my interpretation that Paul is talking about himself in the flesh in 1 Tim 1:15.
I don't insist that others should accept my views on those passages of Scripture. If anyone were to find my sharing helpful, take it and use it to the praise of God. If not, just throw it away or ignore it. Afterall, I am no Bible scholar or theologian. :-)... Read more
Now, regarding the verse in James 4:7-8: "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
I read through the entire book of James a couple of times and in different versions this morning. I realised that the letter is meant to address a range of issues involving several different groups of people within "twelve tribes scattered among the nations". A portion of the letter was directed at the persecuted who were undergoing trials; a portion to those who apparently had anger management issues and were undisciplined in the way they spoke with one another; another portion to those who practiced favoritism in church; another portion to people who did not walk the talk and were lacking in good works; another portion to those who presumed to be teachers but were unwise in their speech and stirred up controversies; another portin to those who indulged in their pleasures; another to brothers who slandered one another; another those who boost in their future plans for profit; another to the rich oppressors, another to a group of apparently poor and long-suffering people; and another to those who were in trouble and sick.
In James 4:8, when James used the word "sinners", it is possible that he was addressing a certain group or a few groups of believers in the churches. At the same time, it is also not unthinkable that James might be addressing the unbelievers among the group(s) of people.
Even if we were to assume that there were no non-Christians/unbelievers among the churches in "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations", and that James used the term "sinners" to address the believers, I believe he meant it in the way of "you who committed sinful acts" (in reference to their deeds) rather than "you who are unforgiven and unrighteous" (in reference to their IDENTITY, their relationships with the Lord).
In any case, my personal view is that the two verses in 1 Tim 1:15 and James 4:8 do not firmly or in any way establish a case/ an example for us to follow in terms of how we should identify, address or describe ourselves and our fellow believers.
I find the ways the writers of the New Testament identify, address and describe believers are mostly (if not always) affirming, encouraging and assuring, and I intend to follow that pattern.
Teaching personal responsibility in church - a discussion
The exchanges below follow those that took place in another posting titlted "How do we teach righteousness?": http://livelearnloveleavealegacy.blogspot.com/2009/11/how-do-we-teach-righteousness-right.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C wrote:
There is nothing wrong if you wish to emphasize what God has already done.
I choose to emphasize on the things WE DO because the context of my comments is that the righteous who believe themselves sinners is the biblical kind of people. This is what the Bible teaches and I have provided scriptural texts to support this point.
The righteous believe themselves sinners as the Apostle Paul did, is because they know that sanctification and righteous living is a process and that although they are righteous, having a position of right standing before God, yet they must pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and] gentleness. ( 1 Tim 6:11).
I stress on personal responsibility knowing that God will do His part and enable us, if we DO our part. For example, it is irresponsible for a believer to say " I don’t know why God allows me to fail my exam when I’ve already surrender my studies to Him”, when the person who makes this statement did not put in effort in His studies.
I close with this quote: "Tell me not that you are righteous, unless you have also some marks of sanctification. Boast not of Christ's work for you, unless you can show us the Spirit's work in you."
Lip Kee replied:
Yes, Charles, I agree with you that it is important to teach about personal responsibility.
I believe that by affirming ourselves and our fellow siblings in Christ of what God has done for us, and how Jesus by His Finished Work on the Cross has made us fully righteous and completely acceptable before our Abba Father, we are reminding and encouraging ourselves that we HAVE THE ABILITY TO RESPOND to God and to His promises.
This is how I teach people about personal responsibility (response-ability) - by affirming them of their God-given, Christ-powered ability to respond.
So like you, I am for teaching personal responsibility. It's just that our approach and our focus are different. :-)
As for the verse in 1 Tim 1 where the apostle Paul claimed to be "the Chief" of all sinners, my interpretation is that in that particular context, Paul was speaking of himelf in the natural, in the flesh, NOT of himself in Christ, in the Spirit.
In and of myself, outside of Jesus Christ, I am but a hopeless and helpless sinner.
But thanks be to God, because of the Finished Work at the Cross, I am now and forever in Christ. And in Him, I am the righteousness of God!... Read more
All throughout Paul's letters, he repeateded affirms and assures us that we are accepted in the Beloved, that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places, that we have the propitiation for our sins, that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
In John's first letter, we are told that "as Jesus is (present tense), so are we in this world".
As Jesus is fully righteous in heaven, so are we fully righteous in this world.Knowing this precious truth compels, motivates me, empowers me to perform acts that are righteous, to behave in ways that are godly, in this world.
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C wrote:
There is nothing wrong if you wish to emphasize what God has already done.
I choose to emphasize on the things WE DO because the context of my comments is that the righteous who believe themselves sinners is the biblical kind of people. This is what the Bible teaches and I have provided scriptural texts to support this point.
The righteous believe themselves sinners as the Apostle Paul did, is because they know that sanctification and righteous living is a process and that although they are righteous, having a position of right standing before God, yet they must pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and] gentleness. ( 1 Tim 6:11).
I stress on personal responsibility knowing that God will do His part and enable us, if we DO our part. For example, it is irresponsible for a believer to say " I don’t know why God allows me to fail my exam when I’ve already surrender my studies to Him”, when the person who makes this statement did not put in effort in His studies.
I close with this quote: "Tell me not that you are righteous, unless you have also some marks of sanctification. Boast not of Christ's work for you, unless you can show us the Spirit's work in you."
Lip Kee replied:
Yes, Charles, I agree with you that it is important to teach about personal responsibility.
I believe that by affirming ourselves and our fellow siblings in Christ of what God has done for us, and how Jesus by His Finished Work on the Cross has made us fully righteous and completely acceptable before our Abba Father, we are reminding and encouraging ourselves that we HAVE THE ABILITY TO RESPOND to God and to His promises.
This is how I teach people about personal responsibility (response-ability) - by affirming them of their God-given, Christ-powered ability to respond.
So like you, I am for teaching personal responsibility. It's just that our approach and our focus are different. :-)
As for the verse in 1 Tim 1 where the apostle Paul claimed to be "the Chief" of all sinners, my interpretation is that in that particular context, Paul was speaking of himelf in the natural, in the flesh, NOT of himself in Christ, in the Spirit.
In and of myself, outside of Jesus Christ, I am but a hopeless and helpless sinner.
But thanks be to God, because of the Finished Work at the Cross, I am now and forever in Christ. And in Him, I am the righteousness of God!... Read more
All throughout Paul's letters, he repeateded affirms and assures us that we are accepted in the Beloved, that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places, that we have the propitiation for our sins, that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
In John's first letter, we are told that "as Jesus is (present tense), so are we in this world".
As Jesus is fully righteous in heaven, so are we fully righteous in this world.Knowing this precious truth compels, motivates me, empowers me to perform acts that are righteous, to behave in ways that are godly, in this world.
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