BoredToDeath asked:
Without PP, how much do you think the church can generate? More or less than GOD?
Lip Kee replied:
To be totally honest with you, I believe that without Pastor Prince, NCC will not be where it is right now.
This is just a personal conviction. I cannot prove or disprove it. (In a way, this is similar to some people's view that Singapore will not be where it is now without MM Lee. This view too cannot be proven or unproven).
Personally, I am convinced that NCC is growing so rapidly and the people are giving so willingly and generously because Pastor Prince is able to reveal and exalt Jesus Christ so effectively.
Again, this is just my personal conviction. That is why I am still a member of the church and I am regularly giving a good portion of my income to the church.
I am not here to debate or challenge anyone who holds a different view from me. I am just here to present a view - from a church member's perspective.
I just want to let the readers here know that there are people like me, a member of the church who is totally happy with how things are. :-)
And as I've written previously, anyone who is in the church and is unhappy about the pastor's salary can always choose to reduce/stop his/her giving to the church or to leave the church.
And anyone who is currently NOT in the church and are NOT giving to the church, is free to continue to NOT to step into the church and NOT to give a single cent.
Democratic, yeah? :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=10
-------------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
Where is God in this, I thought it was God who blesses a church and therefore it grows. Or is it because someone reveals christ?
Lip Kee replied:
I agree with you totally it is God who blesses the church.
The way I see it, for NCC, God blesses us with a gifted preacher who is able to effectively reveal and exalt the Lord Jesus Christ in people's lives. And through this gift of a preacher, NCC is blessed and is a blessing. Hence, the growth and influence.
Please note that I am NOT claiming that Pastor Prince is THE only gifted preacher. I believe there are many gifted preachers, and NCC is blessed with one of them.
As He Is So Am I commented:
As for voting why not vote with a real ballot. Isn't that what a vote is for? I believe that the 20000 church goers should have option (c)
(c) submit a vote of approval or rejection of JP pay.
(d) if unsatisfied, submit a vote of no confidence in the council and elect a board consisting solely of independent and unpaid volunteers.
But will the 20000 pull this off? Legally is this possible?
Lip Kee replied:
NCC has voting members who attend the AGM and vote on matters concerning the church, including that of the appointment of the church council members. The council members are the ones who decide on the salary of the pastor.
I believe this kind of an arrangement is not unlike what is being done for many other church and non-church organizations.
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=11
-----------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
So option (c) is not a valid option at this time? Which brings me to the following questions
Firstly I would like to ask how council members are selected and elected since they determine the salary of the pastor.
Secondly in all my years at NCC I have never voted, so please enlighten me how does one qualify to be a voting member and how many voting members does NCC have?
And as a member of the church, I am asking you why not have a third option of voting on it. If 20000 agree to give x amount to the senior pastor, no one in Singapore can continue to complain.
Lip Kee replied:
These are valid questions.
Different churches adopt different types of system of governance. Prebyeterian churches have theirs which differs from the Methodist churches.
NCC has chosen a system of governance that empowers voting members to choose the members of a church council who deliberates and decides on matters concerning the church.
There are many practical issues to consider, e.g. What matter should be decided by the church council and which issues should be decided by a church-wide voting? Who among the 20,000 should be considered a member? How should membership be determined - by attendance/ commitment in terms of serving/ tithing record etc? How does the church decide on granting voting membership?
If you are a member of the church, you may want to approach the church office to clarify these matters. I don't think this is the proper forum for this discussion.
In any case, if a person who does not attend NCC and who did not give a single cent to the church chooses to be unhappy and complain about the pastor's pay, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it, since this is a free country. :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=12
-----------------------------
Magenta commented:
Yes, never voted in my life... be it for the elections, at shareholders' meeting or church councils. Not that it matters anyway.... but NCCians are practically free to vote with their feet or pocket.
Lip Kee's response:
I agree with you.
I have voted and I have raised questions during the AGMs I've attended.
But I totally agree with you that the most practical and the best way to vote is with our pocket and our feet.
If we don't like what we see or hear in NCC, we can simply choose to stop dropping those cash/cheques into the bags/boxes, or we can simply stop going to the church.
As far as I know, no one is forcing any person to go to NCC or to give to the church.
Just to clarify in case there is any misinformation/ misunderstanding, in NCC, we don't use GIRO for our giving - i.e. we don't have our money deducted from our bank accounts automatically every month. The way we give in NCC is by physically dropping cash or cheques into the tithing/ offering bags/boxes when we are in church.
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=13
------------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
I find it a bit disheartnening that the only recourse to the 20000 givers who gave to the building is to vote with their feet.
If we are committed enough to give to the building and commited enough to tithe, why are we not enabled to vote on such a matter of conscience?
Lip Kee replied:
To be very honest with you, even though I am a member with voting right at the church AGMs, I still believe that the most practical and effective way to vote is with my time and money I decide to commit to the church.
When we talk about voting, we need to bear in mind the practical limitations and implications. Do we really want to get involved in the daily operational and administrative matters of the church? Do we want all 20,000 of us to review and vote on the pay of all the full-time staff, which pastor's salary to be raised and by how much, which overseas ministries to sow into, which charities to support, which guest speakers to invite, what type of renovation/construction works on our old and new venues be granted the go-ahead etc. etc. Where do we start and stop?
For me, I choose to trust in the Shepherd our Lord Jesus Christ to watch over our church, the church council and our pastors. If I sense that the church leaders are no longer doing God's work but are doing things for ulterior motives, I will not hesitate to leave the church.
Nevertheless, if you strongly wish to exercise church membership rights and responsibilities, I would encourage you to check and clarify the matter with the church office directly.
Shalom!
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?p=229248&posted=1#post229248
Monday, March 30, 2009
Sunday, March 29, 2009
$0.5m annual salary for pastor - some thoughts
Church leader gets $500k
The Straits Times
March 30, 2009
By Theresa Tan & Melissa Sim
THE New Creation Church, which made headlines for raising $19 million on one Sunday last month for its upcoming multi-million dollar building, pays good money to its staff too.
The independent church paid one employee between $500,001 and $550,000 in its last financial year, checks by The Straits Times showed.
The church did not confirm if the amount went to its leader, Senior Pastor Joseph Prince, but told The Straits Times that its policy is to 'recognise and reward key contributors to the church and Senior Pastor Prince is the main pillar of our church's growth and revenue'.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_356328.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the full article, which was carried on the front page and continued on page A6 of The Straits Times on Monday, March 30, 2008, Deacon Mathew Kang made the following statement:"Senior Pastor Prince is the key man responsible for bringing in about 95 per cent of our church's income. I must concede that he has enriched the church and not the other way round".
Some critics took issue with that statement. They argued that the church is not about growth and revenue.
I agree with them. The church is not about growth and revenue. And contrary to what some critics may think, in my view, the church is also not about charity and helping people.
For me, the church is ALL about revealing and exalting Christ. I believe that when Jesus Christ is revealed and exalted, people's lives are transformed and they are helped. And when people see Jesus and find help in Him in a church, the church cannot help but grow and prosper.
Pastor Prince has been doing a tremendous job at revealing and exalting Jesus Christ. As a result, people are being helped, and the church is growing and prospering.
Should Pastor Prince not be rewarded for what he has done and is doing for the church and the people? Of course he should. I believe few of us in the church would disagree on this. The question is: how much?
Is the half a million pay package too much or too little?
I agree with Deacon Mathew's view that it is Pastor Prince who enriches the church rather than the other way round. Let's keep in mind that in the previous financial year, the annual pay for Pastor Prince constitutes a mere 1% of the total annual revenue of the church. Now, let us ask ourselves: would the church be able to generate a revenue of $54m, if not for Pastor Prince's teaching and preaching ministry?
If there were to be people in the church who think that the church is paying too much to the pastor, and they are unhappy about it, I believe they are free to vote on the matter, either:
(a) with their hands - i.e. by stopping or reducing their giving to the church; or
(b) with their feet - i.e. by leaving the church.
As for me, I trust the church council's wisdom and decision on the matter.
And I am glad to continue to call New Creation Church my home church and to carry on with my usual tithing and offering :-)
The Straits Times
March 30, 2009
By Theresa Tan & Melissa Sim
THE New Creation Church, which made headlines for raising $19 million on one Sunday last month for its upcoming multi-million dollar building, pays good money to its staff too.
The independent church paid one employee between $500,001 and $550,000 in its last financial year, checks by The Straits Times showed.
The church did not confirm if the amount went to its leader, Senior Pastor Joseph Prince, but told The Straits Times that its policy is to 'recognise and reward key contributors to the church and Senior Pastor Prince is the main pillar of our church's growth and revenue'.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_356328.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the full article, which was carried on the front page and continued on page A6 of The Straits Times on Monday, March 30, 2008, Deacon Mathew Kang made the following statement:"Senior Pastor Prince is the key man responsible for bringing in about 95 per cent of our church's income. I must concede that he has enriched the church and not the other way round".
Some critics took issue with that statement. They argued that the church is not about growth and revenue.
I agree with them. The church is not about growth and revenue. And contrary to what some critics may think, in my view, the church is also not about charity and helping people.
For me, the church is ALL about revealing and exalting Christ. I believe that when Jesus Christ is revealed and exalted, people's lives are transformed and they are helped. And when people see Jesus and find help in Him in a church, the church cannot help but grow and prosper.
Pastor Prince has been doing a tremendous job at revealing and exalting Jesus Christ. As a result, people are being helped, and the church is growing and prospering.
Should Pastor Prince not be rewarded for what he has done and is doing for the church and the people? Of course he should. I believe few of us in the church would disagree on this. The question is: how much?
Is the half a million pay package too much or too little?
I agree with Deacon Mathew's view that it is Pastor Prince who enriches the church rather than the other way round. Let's keep in mind that in the previous financial year, the annual pay for Pastor Prince constitutes a mere 1% of the total annual revenue of the church. Now, let us ask ourselves: would the church be able to generate a revenue of $54m, if not for Pastor Prince's teaching and preaching ministry?
If there were to be people in the church who think that the church is paying too much to the pastor, and they are unhappy about it, I believe they are free to vote on the matter, either:
(a) with their hands - i.e. by stopping or reducing their giving to the church; or
(b) with their feet - i.e. by leaving the church.
As for me, I trust the church council's wisdom and decision on the matter.
And I am glad to continue to call New Creation Church my home church and to carry on with my usual tithing and offering :-)
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Rainbow in Shenzhen
It was 14 March 2009. The time was around 12 noon. Time to knock off for my colleagues and myself who were working in the Shenzhen office. As we slowly drifted out of the office doors, one of our colleagues shouted excitedly for everyone to look out of the window. We did. And what a sight it was. A full-circle "halo" rainbow around the noon sun.
This was my third sighting of an "unusual" rainbow over the past few months. The first one was an inverted "smiley" rainbow which made a one-minute appearance in the sky of Jerusalem in December 2008. Read blog entry here.
The second was a BIG full-arch rainbow that appeared in the evening sky of Singapore on my birthday in February 2009. Read blog entry here.
Unlike the last two sightings which lasted not more than just a couple of minutes for me, this "halo" rainbow lasted much longer. This allowed me to have the presence of mind and the time to capture photos of it.
It was quite tricky though - imagine staring straight at the bright noon sun and you will see what I mean. By taking advantage of buildings and structures to obscure part of the sun, I managed to capture a few photos of the "halo" rainbow on my mobile phone. :)
Halo-ed sun peeking out from behind an office tower
Noon sun crowned with rainbow
The battery of my mobile actually went flat after just a few shots, and I had to go back to my apartment to re-charge my mobile phone.
It was well past 1pm by the time I got back to the apartments, had my lunch and fully recharged my mobile phone. When I got out of my apartment, I was pleasantly surprised that the rainbow was still hanging in the sky, although it was by then a semi-circle arch rather than a full-circle halo.
Among the photos are a few which showed the rainbow hanging over an apartment building with the four Chinese characters "Jia Nan Mei Di" (which translates as "The Beautiful Land of Canaan") on it.
Rainbow over "Beautiful Land of Canaan"
The sign of God's covenant of peace (the rainbow) over God's promised land flowing with milk and honey (the land of Canaan).
What a beautiful reminder of God's promises and His faithfulness :)
A view of the apartment blocks "Jia Nan Mei Di" (Beautiful Land of Canaan). To the far right of the photo is "Dong Fang Xin Di" (New Land of the East) where my apartment is located. It has an alternative name called "Xu Gu Tang" (Sanctuary of the Ancient Narration). The entire area is known as "Xin An Gu Cheng" (The Old City of New Peace).
Very poetic (in a biblical way), don't you think so? :)
This was my third sighting of an "unusual" rainbow over the past few months. The first one was an inverted "smiley" rainbow which made a one-minute appearance in the sky of Jerusalem in December 2008. Read blog entry here.
The second was a BIG full-arch rainbow that appeared in the evening sky of Singapore on my birthday in February 2009. Read blog entry here.
Unlike the last two sightings which lasted not more than just a couple of minutes for me, this "halo" rainbow lasted much longer. This allowed me to have the presence of mind and the time to capture photos of it.
It was quite tricky though - imagine staring straight at the bright noon sun and you will see what I mean. By taking advantage of buildings and structures to obscure part of the sun, I managed to capture a few photos of the "halo" rainbow on my mobile phone. :)
Halo-ed sun peeking out from behind an office tower
Noon sun crowned with rainbow
The battery of my mobile actually went flat after just a few shots, and I had to go back to my apartment to re-charge my mobile phone.
It was well past 1pm by the time I got back to the apartments, had my lunch and fully recharged my mobile phone. When I got out of my apartment, I was pleasantly surprised that the rainbow was still hanging in the sky, although it was by then a semi-circle arch rather than a full-circle halo.
Among the photos are a few which showed the rainbow hanging over an apartment building with the four Chinese characters "Jia Nan Mei Di" (which translates as "The Beautiful Land of Canaan") on it.
Rainbow over "Beautiful Land of Canaan"The sign of God's covenant of peace (the rainbow) over God's promised land flowing with milk and honey (the land of Canaan).
What a beautiful reminder of God's promises and His faithfulness :)
A view of the apartment blocks "Jia Nan Mei Di" (Beautiful Land of Canaan). To the far right of the photo is "Dong Fang Xin Di" (New Land of the East) where my apartment is located. It has an alternative name called "Xu Gu Tang" (Sanctuary of the Ancient Narration). The entire area is known as "Xin An Gu Cheng" (The Old City of New Peace). Very poetic (in a biblical way), don't you think so? :)
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Perversion of the gospel? - a discussion
TW wrote:
You know JP and NCC clearly teaches this false "Gospel" below:
"Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will not only save you from sin and hell, but also give to you health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more." http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/we_believe/cross.htm
-------------------
Lip Kee replied:
Why would proclaiming that "Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will not only save you from sin and hell, but also give to you health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more" be tantamount to preaching a false "Gospel"?
Do we see Christ as everything we need?
Would you agree that Jesus Christ is:
- the Lord who is able and willing to heal;
- the joy of all the Earth;
- the Prince of Peace,
- God's perfect love personified;
- our hope of glory
- the beloved in whom we are accepted;
- the Lord who enables us to be able and willing to give (in terms of material possessions, time, efforts, love) generously to help others;
- the source of all good things
The way I see it, receiving Jesus as my Lord and Savior means that I also receive Him as my Lord of ALL, my Savior to whom I turn to for any and every kind of challenges I face in life.
When I say that take Jesus as my EVERYTHING, I mean just that: EVERYTHING - including health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the ability to be generous with others (with our time, our energy, our material possessions), and all good things I can ever ask or think.
So, in that sense, I really don't see what's wrong with the statement.
Would you like to point out which portion(s) of the statement you find problematic or false?
--------------------------
TW wrote:
LipKee,
When anyone declares a "gospel" inviting one come to Jesus to get "favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more.", one declares a false gospel and a false christ.
COVETOUSNESS is IDOLATRY ! Colossians 3:5
"It's idolatry because the contentment that the heart should be getting from God it starts to get from something else.So covetousness is desiring something so much that you lose your contentment in God. Or: losing your contentment in God so that you start to seek it elsewhere. Covetousness is a heart divided between two gods. So Paul calls it idolatry. "
God is to be magnified by the offensive and "foolishness" nature of true Gospel of Jesus Christ. God is to be desired above ALL, Christ is to be desired above ALL. God chose the foolish Gospel of a despised and suffering Christ. God sovereignly by grace draws and calls a sinner to come to Christ by allowing the sinner to see the beauty of the Cross of Christ. "For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1Cor 1:18, 20.
When one comes to Jesus Christ, one comes to Jesus Christ ALONE. When one comes to seek $$$, one come to a false Christ or an "idolatry" offering the prospect of $$$.
This "gospel" from JP and NCC is the sad perversion of true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The false "gospel" from JP and NCC robbed Christ of His due glory. "Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will not only save you from sin and hell, but also give to you health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more." http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/we_believe/cross.htm
-----------------------------
Lip Kee replied:
TW,
We all go through different stages in our walk with God, don't we?
A journey - from being self-occupied to being Christ-occupied
I don't know about you, but I did not start out my faith walk with Jesus because I had a pure heart that appreciated Him and Him alone, without any trace of selfishness. No. I started my walk with God like a typical self-centered child, who thought only about what I needed and wanted. I wanted to be saved. I wanted to enjoy heaven. I wanted God to hear and answer my prayers. It was all about ME AND MY BLESSINGS.
As I matured more in the Lord, I began to think more about how I can be a blessing to others. I started to find ways to serve and to give to people - first just within the church community, and eventually beyond the church to the society/ world at large. It became more about OTHERS AND HOW I COULD BE A BLESSING TO THEM.
After coming to NCC (in late 2002)and sitting under the ministry of Pastor Prince, I began to see more and more of how beautiful Jesus is in and of Himself, and I started to really appreciate how truly amazing His grace is. As I learned more and more about the goodness and generosity of my Savior and Lord - Who not only blesses me but also allow me the privilege of being a blessings to others, my focus started to be more and more on Him alone. More and more, it is about JESUS AND ONLY JESUS.
From being purely self-occupied, to being more others-occupied, to being more and more Christ- occupied, it has been a journey for me.
I don't claim speak for every believer, but at least for myself, and for many believers that I know personally in NCC, our faith walks are a journey we are taking, and along this journey of faith, NCC has played and is playing an important role in helping us becoming less self-occupied, less others-occupied, but more Christ occupied. :)
Revisiting the definition of wealth and prosperity
I would really want to encourage you to see "wealth" and "prosperity" not just in terms of money and material possessions. If you find those two words offensive, may I suggest we use the phrase "more than enough for ourselves that we may give generously to others". How about that? :)
I don't have a million dollars in my bank accounts. But I believe I have more than enough to give to others. And because I believe so, I give generously.
If and when I find myself facing financial challenges (which I had, several times in my life), I continue to hold on to the truth that the Lord is my Shepherd and I shall not want. I continue to be generous in my giving because I truly believe that I have more than enough because Jesus Christ is my Shepherd.
(Note: I am not giving you mere theoretical arguments here. I am sharing my life and how I actually live it. If you so demand, I will gladly provide you with the evidences of my giving of money and time to churches and various charitable organizations over the years)
On the covetousness of man and the Solution
Man has his needs and desires. Every Man seeks to be satisfied. Every Man seeks to blessed with good things. Man, by his very nature, covets. How would you address this problem of Man's covetousness?
I suggest the solution is to point man to Christ. Because in Christ, every need and desire of Man is fully met. I believe what Man really covets is the Presence of Christ.
And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with me coveting the Presence of Christ, do you?
-------------------
TW wrote:
Hi LipKee,
I appreciate your attempt to share your experiences, I do not intend to cast aspersion on your experiences. The issue is at hand is the perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The sad perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as typified by the teaching from JP's book below, how can any Christian who truly believe and love the Gospel of Jesus Christ not feel grieve and rightly conclude that "NCC as MAN-focused: always preaching about MY blessing of health, MY blessing of wealth, My blessings - it's all about ME, ME, ME." ??
"My friend, the moment you are born again, you have Jesus in your life. And when you have Him in your life, get ready to prosper for gold will come to you! But don’t look for the gold, look to Jesus - He is the power to get wealth. (Deuteronomy 8:18) The presence of the Son of the living God in your life attracts prosperity. Because of His grace toward us, Jesus though He was rich, was made poor at the cross for your sake so that “you through His poverty might become rich.
Beloved, when you have Jesus in your life and when you know that He has paid the price for your prosperity, you can boldly declare, “Jesus was made poor at the cross for my sake so that through His poverty, I am made rich in all things!” - Joseph Prince, ‘Rich Through Jesus’ Poverty’, in id., Destined To Reign Devotional: Daily reflections for effortless success, wholeness and victorious living (Singapore, 22 Media Pte. Ltd., 2008), p. 357.
Look through the whole devotional yourself, JP is NOT talking about spiritual wealth, it is clearly MATERIAL WEALTH and MATERIAL PROSPERITY.
Did your Lord Jesus, at the garden in Gethsemane, agonized and shuddered at accepting the cup the Father has asked Him to so that Jesus "paid the price for your prosperity"? This is a FALSE gospel presentation and a false Christ is being presented.
Anyone who truly love the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Savior will reject this sad perversion of the Gospel.
The Gospel is the power unto salvation to be preached for the conversion of sinful souls of men and women to repent and turn to Jesus Christ for their only hope for eternity to be with their Creator, do NOT pervert it !
Shalom
--------------------
Lip Kee replied:
TW,
Am I a false believer? Am I perverting the gospel?
I believe that because I have Jesus in my life, I have the power to get wealth. (Deuteronomy 8:18). I believe and I boldly proclaim that "Jesus was made poor at the cross for my sake so that through His poverty, I am made rich in ALL THINGS" - not merely spiritual or material, but ALL things - both spiritual and material.
Now, do you therefore conclude that I am a lover and servant of money? Do you therefore consider me as a lesser (or even false) believer? Do you therefore see me as someone who perverts the gospel?
Or would you reserve your comments about me until you get to know me better as a person, until you see how I relate to people and conduct my daily affairs, until you see the fruit (or lack of fruit) in my life?
Did Jesus speak of just spiritual blessings only or BOTH spiritual and material blessings?
The Jesus I know did not MERELY speak about spiritual blessings only. The Jesus I know taught me to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL THESE THINGS (material blessings) will be added upon me.
Similarly, NCC does not merely teaches about spiritual blessings only. NCC teaches the congregation to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and and ALL THESE THINGS (material blessings) will be added upon them.
As I've written previously, two different persons may observe the same facts about NCC and read the same words written by Pastor Prince, but arrive at totally different conclusions about the church.
After having served with the pastors, leaders and other members in the church for more than 5 years, my personal conclusion is "NCC is CHRIST-focused: always preaching about CHRIST'S blessing of health, CHRIST'S blessing of wealth, CHRIST'S blessings - it's all about CHRIST, CHRIST, CHRIST."
Note: The original discussion took place in a friend's blog:
here
You know JP and NCC clearly teaches this false "Gospel" below:
"Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will not only save you from sin and hell, but also give to you health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more." http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/we_believe/cross.htm
-------------------
Lip Kee replied:
Why would proclaiming that "Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will not only save you from sin and hell, but also give to you health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more" be tantamount to preaching a false "Gospel"?
Do we see Christ as everything we need?
Would you agree that Jesus Christ is:
- the Lord who is able and willing to heal;
- the joy of all the Earth;
- the Prince of Peace,
- God's perfect love personified;
- our hope of glory
- the beloved in whom we are accepted;
- the Lord who enables us to be able and willing to give (in terms of material possessions, time, efforts, love) generously to help others;
- the source of all good things
The way I see it, receiving Jesus as my Lord and Savior means that I also receive Him as my Lord of ALL, my Savior to whom I turn to for any and every kind of challenges I face in life.
When I say that take Jesus as my EVERYTHING, I mean just that: EVERYTHING - including health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the ability to be generous with others (with our time, our energy, our material possessions), and all good things I can ever ask or think.
So, in that sense, I really don't see what's wrong with the statement.
Would you like to point out which portion(s) of the statement you find problematic or false?
--------------------------
TW wrote:
LipKee,
When anyone declares a "gospel" inviting one come to Jesus to get "favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more.", one declares a false gospel and a false christ.
COVETOUSNESS is IDOLATRY ! Colossians 3:5
"It's idolatry because the contentment that the heart should be getting from God it starts to get from something else.So covetousness is desiring something so much that you lose your contentment in God. Or: losing your contentment in God so that you start to seek it elsewhere. Covetousness is a heart divided between two gods. So Paul calls it idolatry. "
God is to be magnified by the offensive and "foolishness" nature of true Gospel of Jesus Christ. God is to be desired above ALL, Christ is to be desired above ALL. God chose the foolish Gospel of a despised and suffering Christ. God sovereignly by grace draws and calls a sinner to come to Christ by allowing the sinner to see the beauty of the Cross of Christ. "For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1Cor 1:18, 20.
When one comes to Jesus Christ, one comes to Jesus Christ ALONE. When one comes to seek $$$, one come to a false Christ or an "idolatry" offering the prospect of $$$.
This "gospel" from JP and NCC is the sad perversion of true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The false "gospel" from JP and NCC robbed Christ of His due glory. "Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will not only save you from sin and hell, but also give to you health, joy, peace, love, hope, unconditional acceptance, favour, the power to get wealth, all good things you can think of and more." http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/we_believe/cross.htm
-----------------------------
Lip Kee replied:
TW,
We all go through different stages in our walk with God, don't we?
A journey - from being self-occupied to being Christ-occupied
I don't know about you, but I did not start out my faith walk with Jesus because I had a pure heart that appreciated Him and Him alone, without any trace of selfishness. No. I started my walk with God like a typical self-centered child, who thought only about what I needed and wanted. I wanted to be saved. I wanted to enjoy heaven. I wanted God to hear and answer my prayers. It was all about ME AND MY BLESSINGS.
As I matured more in the Lord, I began to think more about how I can be a blessing to others. I started to find ways to serve and to give to people - first just within the church community, and eventually beyond the church to the society/ world at large. It became more about OTHERS AND HOW I COULD BE A BLESSING TO THEM.
After coming to NCC (in late 2002)and sitting under the ministry of Pastor Prince, I began to see more and more of how beautiful Jesus is in and of Himself, and I started to really appreciate how truly amazing His grace is. As I learned more and more about the goodness and generosity of my Savior and Lord - Who not only blesses me but also allow me the privilege of being a blessings to others, my focus started to be more and more on Him alone. More and more, it is about JESUS AND ONLY JESUS.
From being purely self-occupied, to being more others-occupied, to being more and more Christ- occupied, it has been a journey for me.
I don't claim speak for every believer, but at least for myself, and for many believers that I know personally in NCC, our faith walks are a journey we are taking, and along this journey of faith, NCC has played and is playing an important role in helping us becoming less self-occupied, less others-occupied, but more Christ occupied. :)
Revisiting the definition of wealth and prosperity
I would really want to encourage you to see "wealth" and "prosperity" not just in terms of money and material possessions. If you find those two words offensive, may I suggest we use the phrase "more than enough for ourselves that we may give generously to others". How about that? :)
I don't have a million dollars in my bank accounts. But I believe I have more than enough to give to others. And because I believe so, I give generously.
If and when I find myself facing financial challenges (which I had, several times in my life), I continue to hold on to the truth that the Lord is my Shepherd and I shall not want. I continue to be generous in my giving because I truly believe that I have more than enough because Jesus Christ is my Shepherd.
(Note: I am not giving you mere theoretical arguments here. I am sharing my life and how I actually live it. If you so demand, I will gladly provide you with the evidences of my giving of money and time to churches and various charitable organizations over the years)
On the covetousness of man and the Solution
Man has his needs and desires. Every Man seeks to be satisfied. Every Man seeks to blessed with good things. Man, by his very nature, covets. How would you address this problem of Man's covetousness?
I suggest the solution is to point man to Christ. Because in Christ, every need and desire of Man is fully met. I believe what Man really covets is the Presence of Christ.
And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with me coveting the Presence of Christ, do you?
-------------------
TW wrote:
Hi LipKee,
I appreciate your attempt to share your experiences, I do not intend to cast aspersion on your experiences. The issue is at hand is the perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The sad perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as typified by the teaching from JP's book below, how can any Christian who truly believe and love the Gospel of Jesus Christ not feel grieve and rightly conclude that "NCC as MAN-focused: always preaching about MY blessing of health, MY blessing of wealth, My blessings - it's all about ME, ME, ME." ??
"My friend, the moment you are born again, you have Jesus in your life. And when you have Him in your life, get ready to prosper for gold will come to you! But don’t look for the gold, look to Jesus - He is the power to get wealth. (Deuteronomy 8:18) The presence of the Son of the living God in your life attracts prosperity. Because of His grace toward us, Jesus though He was rich, was made poor at the cross for your sake so that “you through His poverty might become rich.
Beloved, when you have Jesus in your life and when you know that He has paid the price for your prosperity, you can boldly declare, “Jesus was made poor at the cross for my sake so that through His poverty, I am made rich in all things!” - Joseph Prince, ‘Rich Through Jesus’ Poverty’, in id., Destined To Reign Devotional: Daily reflections for effortless success, wholeness and victorious living (Singapore, 22 Media Pte. Ltd., 2008), p. 357.
Look through the whole devotional yourself, JP is NOT talking about spiritual wealth, it is clearly MATERIAL WEALTH and MATERIAL PROSPERITY.
Did your Lord Jesus, at the garden in Gethsemane, agonized and shuddered at accepting the cup the Father has asked Him to so that Jesus "paid the price for your prosperity"? This is a FALSE gospel presentation and a false Christ is being presented.
Anyone who truly love the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Savior will reject this sad perversion of the Gospel.
The Gospel is the power unto salvation to be preached for the conversion of sinful souls of men and women to repent and turn to Jesus Christ for their only hope for eternity to be with their Creator, do NOT pervert it !
Shalom
--------------------
Lip Kee replied:
TW,
Am I a false believer? Am I perverting the gospel?
I believe that because I have Jesus in my life, I have the power to get wealth. (Deuteronomy 8:18). I believe and I boldly proclaim that "Jesus was made poor at the cross for my sake so that through His poverty, I am made rich in ALL THINGS" - not merely spiritual or material, but ALL things - both spiritual and material.
Now, do you therefore conclude that I am a lover and servant of money? Do you therefore consider me as a lesser (or even false) believer? Do you therefore see me as someone who perverts the gospel?
Or would you reserve your comments about me until you get to know me better as a person, until you see how I relate to people and conduct my daily affairs, until you see the fruit (or lack of fruit) in my life?
Did Jesus speak of just spiritual blessings only or BOTH spiritual and material blessings?
The Jesus I know did not MERELY speak about spiritual blessings only. The Jesus I know taught me to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL THESE THINGS (material blessings) will be added upon me.
Similarly, NCC does not merely teaches about spiritual blessings only. NCC teaches the congregation to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and and ALL THESE THINGS (material blessings) will be added upon them.
As I've written previously, two different persons may observe the same facts about NCC and read the same words written by Pastor Prince, but arrive at totally different conclusions about the church.
After having served with the pastors, leaders and other members in the church for more than 5 years, my personal conclusion is "NCC is CHRIST-focused: always preaching about CHRIST'S blessing of health, CHRIST'S blessing of wealth, CHRIST'S blessings - it's all about CHRIST, CHRIST, CHRIST."
Note: The original discussion took place in a friend's blog:
here
A church that does not know what a church is - a discussion
SZ wrote:
Those who support NCC's project try to justify by invoking practical and logistic reason. But I think the root problem is not they don't know how to manage their money, but they don't know what is a church and the gospel.
They think the gospel is all about God's grace saving our souls from sin and death. Period. To them, a church is just a place for people to gather, sing praise and worship songs, pray, and listen to Joseph Prince, so that our souls can be saved. This is of course nonsense.
...the church has no concern over theological education or harbor hope for the future of the wider Christian community in the long run. Their only trusted teacher is their senior pastor. And they expect Rapture to happen anytime soon. And when that happened, the faithfuls will zap to heaven leaving their clothes behind. So no point thinking too far ahead. What's important is to bring more people to Joseph Prince. To be baptized by him. That's their Great Commission.
-----------------
Lip Kee replied:
Dear SZ,
I don't know if you were just exaggerating to bring forth your points, or if you really meant what you wrote. Do you honestly think that ALL or the majority of the people who attend NCC really have no idea what a church is, and that they do not know what the gospel is?
Understanding of what the gospel is
You wrote: "They think the gospel is all about God's grace saving our souls from sin and death. Period."
I, for one, and I personally know of many others in NCC who do not subscribe to such a simplistic definition of the gospel - certainly not the way you phrased it. We (meaning those NCC members I personally know of and myself - I don't claim to represent the entire church) believe the gospel to be more than just having our souls saved from sin and death. The good news is MUCH MORE.
Afterall, the good news is ALL about Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on the Cross. So, in a sense, to the extent we could understand the limitlessness of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on the cross, to that extent we could talk about the richness of the content of the gospel.
Understanding of what the church is
You wrote: "To them, a church is just a place for people to gather, sing praise and worship songs, pray, and listen to Joseph Prince, so that our souls can be saved. This is of course nonsense."
I would be the first to agree with you totally that such definition of the church is utter nonsense. Honestly, I don't personally know of a single person in NCC who subscribes to such a definition for a church, do you? If such a person really do exists in NCC, I am sure the leaders in the church would like to meet up with and counsel him/her. Our pastors have taught us over and over again that it is the people who make up the church, not any building. And the church gathers to worship, to commune with, to hear and to see our Lord Jesus Christ, not any mere man.
Having only one trusted teacher?
You wrote: "Their only trusted teacher is their senior pastor."
Honestly, I am curious to find out why, and how did you arrive at such a conclusion. I personally do not regard my senior pastor as my only trusted teacher. And among the people I personally know of in NCC, many of them read the books of and listen to sermons by other pastors and preachers. And some have attended or are attending Bible schools. I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt I could find a single person among them who regards Pastor Prince as the ONLY trusted teacher.
Understanding of the Great Commission
You wrote: "And they expect Rapture to happen anytime soon. And when that happened, the faithfuls will zap to heaven leaving their clothes behind. So no point thinking too far ahead. What's important is to bring more people to Joseph Prince. To be baptized by him. That's their Great Commission."
Again, I do not know how you came to making such a statement. I believe I speak for many, if not all of my personal friends and myself (again, I don't claim to represent everyone in NCC, only myself and the ones I personally know of) that we certainly do not live our lives the way you've described. We think and plan ahead. We have our own minds and lead our own full lives beyond that of the church community. And we certainly do not think the Great Commission is about bringing people to Pastor Prince and getting them baptized by him.
The church is not about a mere pastor, but all about the Great Savior
I would like to clarify here, on behalf of the NCC people that I know of personally and myself, that the focus of the Great Commission for us is not about a mere pastor, but the GREAT SAVIOR - our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you would care to hear me out, may I offer you a few gentle words of advice? Be more careful and precise in the way you write, especially when you are writing about other people.
You have a good mind. You write well. Let your gifts be a blessing to build people up.
----------
SZ wrote:
Hi,
Thank you for your comment and clarification, especially for your sharing of what you and your community view on NCC. As the title of the post is "Guessing...", the post is essential a guess based on the info that I have access to. It is not a ph.D dissertation.
Yet after reading your comment, I still think that I didn't guess wrongly or at least not entirely missed the point. For eg. you wrote that "good news is ALL about Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on the Cross." But what does this really mean?
And you mentioned that NCC's people know that the church is God's community and not building. And you know what? When I wrote that I think NCC has no idea what is the church, it didn't occur in my mind that NCC is so pathetic to the extent that they think church is building. Actually I have higher regards on NCC than the impression you got or mistakenly got. Pls don't get the impression that I'm an anti-NCC whose self-declared life purpose is to condemn my fellow Bro & Sis who are worshiping our same Lord there.
Hence when I say NCC don't know what is the church, it means something more nuanced.
Again, thanks for your time to share here.
---------------
Lip Kee replied:
Hi SZ,
Just to clarify, not to prove who is right and who is wrong
You wrote: "Yet after reading your comment, I still think that I didn't guess wrongly or at least not entirely missed the point."
My comment:
Please don't misunderstand me. :) My intention is not to prove who's views are right or who's are wrong. I am NOT interested in that.
I just wanted:
(1) to find out how you arrived at your statements/ guesses about NCC, and if they were arrived at based on your actual observations of and encounters with NCC people; and
(2) to present to you my personal observations of and encounters with a number of NCC people, and the different conclusions that I arrived at based on those limited observations and encounters.
Maybe your statements/ guesses about NCC were based on your observations of and your encounters with a very different set of NCC people than those whom I've met. Maybe you arrived at those conclusions of yours because of certain unique experiences you had in NCC.
Regardless, I am in no position to reject or deny your statements/ guesses.
So, there is no question about who's right and who's wrong, just an attempt to clarify why we hold such different views of NCC and how we arrived at our views.
So, you cool with that? :)
-------------
SZ wrote:
Ya, absolutely cool with that.
My guess is based on the observation of NCC's teachings, its' activities, and reading its members' testimonies about their own experiences and opinions with the church and how they respond to outsiders' view on the church.
-----------
Lip Kee replied:
SZ,
OK. Thanks for clarifying the basis of your guess. :)
Advice to be more careful and precise in writing about others
I would just like to reiterate my advice to you: Do consider being more careful and precise in the way you write, especially when you are writing about other people.
You may not mean it, but your readers may get the impression that you are putting down the NCC people and treating them as a bunch of shallow and ignorant believers.
Perhaps you may want to consider using qualifying statements like "some of the NCC people that I've come across" instead of "they". That way, the statements you've written will sound more reasonable and acceptable, don't you think so?
Try to replace the word "they" with the phrase "some of the NCC people that I've come across" in the statements you have made (see below), and you should see where I am coming from:
"They think the gospel is all about God's grace saving our souls from sin and death. Period."
"To them, a church is just a place for people to gather, sing praise and worship songs, pray, and listen to Joseph Prince, so that our souls can be saved. This is of course nonsense."
"Their only trusted teacher is their senior pastor."
"And they expect Rapture to happen anytime soon. And when that happened, the faithfuls will zap to heaven leaving their clothes behind. So no point thinking too far ahead. What's important is to bring more people to Joseph Prince. To be baptized by him. That's their Great Commission."
---------------
SZ wrote:
Hi Lip Kee,
U r welcome. And thank you for reminding and your advise. Appreciate them :)
On the other hand, I dont see the need to change the "they" to "some of them" as you suggested. Simply because, I do think that my post is not wrong.
And since as you have previously indicated that your intention is not to prove who's view is right or wrong, then by accepting your proposal without good reasons, we would have shifted into the "right & wrong" field which you are not interested in.
So if it's not about right and wrong, then nothing need to be changed because nothing need to be righted. Does that make sense to you? :)
-------------------
Lip Kee replied:
SZ,
A scenario to consider
Imagine a female person writing about men and making generalized and sweeping statements such as the one that follows:
"ALL men are jerks. They are ill-mannered, boring, shallow, and crude. They are not capable of acting responsibly. They think only about sex all the time. They have absolutely no idea what true love is. They are a totally self centered species. They are unable to care for others at all. They don't know how to live life meaningfully. They are utterly hopeless. Period."
Perhaps because of the types of men she has encountered and observed in her life, the writer honestly believe every word she has written above about those men (or even ALL men).
But as a man, how would you react to what she has written? Would you just shrug your shoulders, raise your eyebrows and smile? Or would you regard her as well-informed, objective, analytical, accurate, and insightful writer?
If you believe that this female writer has a good mind, that she has real substance, and that she has valuable things she could share that will benefit many of her readers, what advice would you give to her?
Notice that I am not asking you to judge how right or wrong her statement about men is. I am asking you to think of ways to help her reach out more effectively to her readers.
Similarly, I am not interested in proving your statements about NCC right or wrong. I am not interest in doing that at all.
I am just suggesting that you consider adopting a different approach/tone when you write about NCC. I made the suggestion because I believe it may help you connect more with your readers, make them more receptive to your writings, so that instead of having a knee-jerk reaction, they would seriously reflect upon the points you've made.
Just ignore my advice if you don't think it is useful or helpful to you. This is you blog after all, so you get to decide what and how you write. I can totally respect that. :)
Stay blessed and be a blessing.
Note: The original discussion took place in SZ's blog :
http://szezeng.blogspot.com/2009/03/guessing-over-new-creation-churchs.html
Those who support NCC's project try to justify by invoking practical and logistic reason. But I think the root problem is not they don't know how to manage their money, but they don't know what is a church and the gospel.
They think the gospel is all about God's grace saving our souls from sin and death. Period. To them, a church is just a place for people to gather, sing praise and worship songs, pray, and listen to Joseph Prince, so that our souls can be saved. This is of course nonsense.
...the church has no concern over theological education or harbor hope for the future of the wider Christian community in the long run. Their only trusted teacher is their senior pastor. And they expect Rapture to happen anytime soon. And when that happened, the faithfuls will zap to heaven leaving their clothes behind. So no point thinking too far ahead. What's important is to bring more people to Joseph Prince. To be baptized by him. That's their Great Commission.
-----------------
Lip Kee replied:
Dear SZ,
I don't know if you were just exaggerating to bring forth your points, or if you really meant what you wrote. Do you honestly think that ALL or the majority of the people who attend NCC really have no idea what a church is, and that they do not know what the gospel is?
Understanding of what the gospel is
You wrote: "They think the gospel is all about God's grace saving our souls from sin and death. Period."
I, for one, and I personally know of many others in NCC who do not subscribe to such a simplistic definition of the gospel - certainly not the way you phrased it. We (meaning those NCC members I personally know of and myself - I don't claim to represent the entire church) believe the gospel to be more than just having our souls saved from sin and death. The good news is MUCH MORE.
Afterall, the good news is ALL about Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on the Cross. So, in a sense, to the extent we could understand the limitlessness of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on the cross, to that extent we could talk about the richness of the content of the gospel.
Understanding of what the church is
You wrote: "To them, a church is just a place for people to gather, sing praise and worship songs, pray, and listen to Joseph Prince, so that our souls can be saved. This is of course nonsense."
I would be the first to agree with you totally that such definition of the church is utter nonsense. Honestly, I don't personally know of a single person in NCC who subscribes to such a definition for a church, do you? If such a person really do exists in NCC, I am sure the leaders in the church would like to meet up with and counsel him/her. Our pastors have taught us over and over again that it is the people who make up the church, not any building. And the church gathers to worship, to commune with, to hear and to see our Lord Jesus Christ, not any mere man.
Having only one trusted teacher?
You wrote: "Their only trusted teacher is their senior pastor."
Honestly, I am curious to find out why, and how did you arrive at such a conclusion. I personally do not regard my senior pastor as my only trusted teacher. And among the people I personally know of in NCC, many of them read the books of and listen to sermons by other pastors and preachers. And some have attended or are attending Bible schools. I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt I could find a single person among them who regards Pastor Prince as the ONLY trusted teacher.
Understanding of the Great Commission
You wrote: "And they expect Rapture to happen anytime soon. And when that happened, the faithfuls will zap to heaven leaving their clothes behind. So no point thinking too far ahead. What's important is to bring more people to Joseph Prince. To be baptized by him. That's their Great Commission."
Again, I do not know how you came to making such a statement. I believe I speak for many, if not all of my personal friends and myself (again, I don't claim to represent everyone in NCC, only myself and the ones I personally know of) that we certainly do not live our lives the way you've described. We think and plan ahead. We have our own minds and lead our own full lives beyond that of the church community. And we certainly do not think the Great Commission is about bringing people to Pastor Prince and getting them baptized by him.
The church is not about a mere pastor, but all about the Great Savior
I would like to clarify here, on behalf of the NCC people that I know of personally and myself, that the focus of the Great Commission for us is not about a mere pastor, but the GREAT SAVIOR - our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you would care to hear me out, may I offer you a few gentle words of advice? Be more careful and precise in the way you write, especially when you are writing about other people.
You have a good mind. You write well. Let your gifts be a blessing to build people up.
----------
SZ wrote:
Hi,
Thank you for your comment and clarification, especially for your sharing of what you and your community view on NCC. As the title of the post is "Guessing...", the post is essential a guess based on the info that I have access to. It is not a ph.D dissertation.
Yet after reading your comment, I still think that I didn't guess wrongly or at least not entirely missed the point. For eg. you wrote that "good news is ALL about Jesus Christ and His Finished Work on the Cross." But what does this really mean?
And you mentioned that NCC's people know that the church is God's community and not building. And you know what? When I wrote that I think NCC has no idea what is the church, it didn't occur in my mind that NCC is so pathetic to the extent that they think church is building. Actually I have higher regards on NCC than the impression you got or mistakenly got. Pls don't get the impression that I'm an anti-NCC whose self-declared life purpose is to condemn my fellow Bro & Sis who are worshiping our same Lord there.
Hence when I say NCC don't know what is the church, it means something more nuanced.
Again, thanks for your time to share here.
---------------
Lip Kee replied:
Hi SZ,
Just to clarify, not to prove who is right and who is wrong
You wrote: "Yet after reading your comment, I still think that I didn't guess wrongly or at least not entirely missed the point."
My comment:
Please don't misunderstand me. :) My intention is not to prove who's views are right or who's are wrong. I am NOT interested in that.
I just wanted:
(1) to find out how you arrived at your statements/ guesses about NCC, and if they were arrived at based on your actual observations of and encounters with NCC people; and
(2) to present to you my personal observations of and encounters with a number of NCC people, and the different conclusions that I arrived at based on those limited observations and encounters.
Maybe your statements/ guesses about NCC were based on your observations of and your encounters with a very different set of NCC people than those whom I've met. Maybe you arrived at those conclusions of yours because of certain unique experiences you had in NCC.
Regardless, I am in no position to reject or deny your statements/ guesses.
So, there is no question about who's right and who's wrong, just an attempt to clarify why we hold such different views of NCC and how we arrived at our views.
So, you cool with that? :)
-------------
SZ wrote:
Ya, absolutely cool with that.
My guess is based on the observation of NCC's teachings, its' activities, and reading its members' testimonies about their own experiences and opinions with the church and how they respond to outsiders' view on the church.
-----------
Lip Kee replied:
SZ,
OK. Thanks for clarifying the basis of your guess. :)
Advice to be more careful and precise in writing about others
I would just like to reiterate my advice to you: Do consider being more careful and precise in the way you write, especially when you are writing about other people.
You may not mean it, but your readers may get the impression that you are putting down the NCC people and treating them as a bunch of shallow and ignorant believers.
Perhaps you may want to consider using qualifying statements like "some of the NCC people that I've come across" instead of "they". That way, the statements you've written will sound more reasonable and acceptable, don't you think so?
Try to replace the word "they" with the phrase "some of the NCC people that I've come across" in the statements you have made (see below), and you should see where I am coming from:
"They think the gospel is all about God's grace saving our souls from sin and death. Period."
"To them, a church is just a place for people to gather, sing praise and worship songs, pray, and listen to Joseph Prince, so that our souls can be saved. This is of course nonsense."
"Their only trusted teacher is their senior pastor."
"And they expect Rapture to happen anytime soon. And when that happened, the faithfuls will zap to heaven leaving their clothes behind. So no point thinking too far ahead. What's important is to bring more people to Joseph Prince. To be baptized by him. That's their Great Commission."
---------------
SZ wrote:
Hi Lip Kee,
U r welcome. And thank you for reminding and your advise. Appreciate them :)
On the other hand, I dont see the need to change the "they" to "some of them" as you suggested. Simply because, I do think that my post is not wrong.
And since as you have previously indicated that your intention is not to prove who's view is right or wrong, then by accepting your proposal without good reasons, we would have shifted into the "right & wrong" field which you are not interested in.
So if it's not about right and wrong, then nothing need to be changed because nothing need to be righted. Does that make sense to you? :)
-------------------
Lip Kee replied:
SZ,
A scenario to consider
Imagine a female person writing about men and making generalized and sweeping statements such as the one that follows:
"ALL men are jerks. They are ill-mannered, boring, shallow, and crude. They are not capable of acting responsibly. They think only about sex all the time. They have absolutely no idea what true love is. They are a totally self centered species. They are unable to care for others at all. They don't know how to live life meaningfully. They are utterly hopeless. Period."
Perhaps because of the types of men she has encountered and observed in her life, the writer honestly believe every word she has written above about those men (or even ALL men).
But as a man, how would you react to what she has written? Would you just shrug your shoulders, raise your eyebrows and smile? Or would you regard her as well-informed, objective, analytical, accurate, and insightful writer?
If you believe that this female writer has a good mind, that she has real substance, and that she has valuable things she could share that will benefit many of her readers, what advice would you give to her?
Notice that I am not asking you to judge how right or wrong her statement about men is. I am asking you to think of ways to help her reach out more effectively to her readers.
Similarly, I am not interested in proving your statements about NCC right or wrong. I am not interest in doing that at all.
I am just suggesting that you consider adopting a different approach/tone when you write about NCC. I made the suggestion because I believe it may help you connect more with your readers, make them more receptive to your writings, so that instead of having a knee-jerk reaction, they would seriously reflect upon the points you've made.
Just ignore my advice if you don't think it is useful or helpful to you. This is you blog after all, so you get to decide what and how you write. I can totally respect that. :)
Stay blessed and be a blessing.
Note: The original discussion took place in SZ's blog :
http://szezeng.blogspot.com/2009/03/guessing-over-new-creation-churchs.html
Wednesday, March 11, 2009
News report on NCC's Miracle Seed Sunday - My Paper: Mar 10, 2009
News @ AsiaOne
$19 million in less than 24 hours
The congregation at New Creation Church raised a whopping $19 million for the construction of its new premises at Buona Vista. -myp
Tue, Mar 10, 2009
my paper
THE congregation at New Creation Church raised a whopping $19 million for the construction of its new premises at Buona Vista - in less than 24 hours.
In a show of support, a record number of 22,000 people turned up for services at the Rock Auditorium at Suntec City Mall three weeks ago.
The donations were collected over four services on Feb 15.
In comparison, a month-long charity drive by NTUC Income, Project Love, raised about $375,000.
Following the success of its fund-raiser, the New Creation Church announced the amount it raised to its members on Feb 22. However, when contacted, the church declined to comment.
New Creation Church-goer Angelique Lee, 26, a full-time student, said her donation was a form of thanksgiving and appreciation "for all that God has blessed me with".
'Attending church has helped to transform my life and make me a better person over time,' she explained.
Graduate student Huang Wei Hsuan, 26, who is not a member of the church, felt that part of the funds could be used to "help those who are really in need, instead of being fully used to construct a new building".
'Is it really a good idea to build a new building now? Should the church members be advised to keep more for rainy days?' he asked. But many others who are not from the church were heartened by the congregation's generosity.
'I feel it's incredible that such kindness, empathy and generosity can be shown in such bad economic times,' said Mr Shawn Chin, 24, a civil servant.
joyfang@sph.com.sg
Straits Times report on NCC's Miracle Seed Sunday (2009)
STRAITS TIMES - 11 March 2009
CHURCH COLLECTS $19m IN ONE DAY FOR LIFESTYLE HUB
By Theresa Tan & Melissa Sim
MEMBERS of the New Creation Church and their friends donated an average of $864 each one Sunday last month, netting the church a whopping $19 million for its upcoming multimillion-dollar lifestyle hub in Buona Vista.
The sum is believed to be the largest ever collected in Singapore in one single day and comes at a time when charities say donations are dipping, as the recession worsens and people are keeping their hands firmly in their pockets.
This, however, is not the first time the New Creation Church, an independent church led by Senior Pastor Joseph Prince, has collected such a staggering sum in one day. One Sunday in April last year, the church collected about $18 million during its first 'Miracle Seed Sunday'.
The church declined to be interviewed, saying its affairs were 'a personal expression of worship'.
But The Straits Times understands that 'Miracle Seed Sunday' is a day when the church's members 'sow a seed, expecting miracles'.
Mr Prince declared during his sermons early last month that Feb 15 would be a 'Miracle Seed Sunday'.
A record 22,000 people, including members and their friends, showed up on Feb15 for the church services and pledged $19 million. The proceeds are to go to the church's new cultural and entertainment complex being developed by its business arm, Rock Productions.
Last September, Rock Productions told The Straits Times it had raised about a third of the $500 million it needed to build the complex. It is partnering property giant CapitaLand to build the close to $1 billion project, envisioned as a 'futuristic complex with restaurants, shops and a 5,000-seat theatre'.
CapitaLand will own and manage the complex's retail and entertainment zone. Rock Productions will own and manage the civic and cultural zone, which will house the 5,000-seat theatre to be used for the New Creation Church's Sunday services.
Church members interviewed said they were happy to donate to the new complex. Bank executive Marcus Wong, 28, said: 'It's not compulsory. Whoever has the heart and wants to give can come forward to give. The building is for God, so we see it as an offering.'
When asked whether she thought the money should go to helping the poor instead of constructing a building, another church member, a businesswoman who declined to be named, replied: 'I believe with the new building, we are giving to the kingdom of God, and God will be able to bless more people.'
The New Creation Church is one of the fastest- growing churches in Singapore. It was founded here in 1984 by a group of young Christians and has grown from 25 believers to more than 18,000 members today. It had an income of $55.4 million during its last financial year.
Thursday, March 5, 2009
Do you believe in love at first sight?
My response to the question, "Do you believe in love at first sight?" is as follows:
I feel the word "love" is used so loosely, it has become confusing rather than useful during communication. The word is used to described uncontrolled, fluctuating FEELINGS. The same word is also used to define an informed DECISION and a deliberate COMMITMENT.
Do I believe in love at first sight? I cannot answer that question until the question is re-framed in terms that are more precise and accurate.
Feelings of attraction and fondness at first sight - Yes
Have I ever had a feeling of fondness for someone I met for the first time? Yes. Have I ever experienced a strong feeling of attraction to someone when I saw her for the first time? Yes.
Do I believe that in future, I may meet someone for the first time and instantly feel a liking for her? Yes. I don't think that is an unlikely scenario. Do I believe that in future, I will see someone for the first time and experience a strong feeling of attraction to her? Probably, yes.
Decision to a life-long commitment at first sight - No
Have I ever committed my whole life, all that I am and all that I have, to someone I met for the first time? No. Have I ever decided to protect, to provide for, to respect and to cherish someone as long as I live, when I saw her for the first time? No.
Do I believe that in future, I will meet someone for the first time, and I will deliberately commit my whole life - all that I am and all that I have, to her? No. Certainly, not. Do I believe that in future, I will see someone for the first time, and I will make an informed decision to protect, to provide for, to respect and to cherish someone as long as I live? No. I am sure I will not.
From initial feelings (beyond one's control) to life-long commitment (deliberate decision)
Do I believe: (a) I would meet someone, (b) and at first sight, the both of us become mutually attracted/ connected to each other, (c) and after getting to know each other more deeply, we find ourselves compatible/ complimentary to each other in the key areas, (d) and after careful considerations, we decide to commit exclusively to each other in a life-long relationship?
Yes. I believe.
The first part of point (b) though, may read alternately as "after meeting each other over several occasions" rather than "and at first sight".
I feel the word "love" is used so loosely, it has become confusing rather than useful during communication. The word is used to described uncontrolled, fluctuating FEELINGS. The same word is also used to define an informed DECISION and a deliberate COMMITMENT.
Do I believe in love at first sight? I cannot answer that question until the question is re-framed in terms that are more precise and accurate.
Feelings of attraction and fondness at first sight - Yes
Have I ever had a feeling of fondness for someone I met for the first time? Yes. Have I ever experienced a strong feeling of attraction to someone when I saw her for the first time? Yes.
Do I believe that in future, I may meet someone for the first time and instantly feel a liking for her? Yes. I don't think that is an unlikely scenario. Do I believe that in future, I will see someone for the first time and experience a strong feeling of attraction to her? Probably, yes.
Decision to a life-long commitment at first sight - No
Have I ever committed my whole life, all that I am and all that I have, to someone I met for the first time? No. Have I ever decided to protect, to provide for, to respect and to cherish someone as long as I live, when I saw her for the first time? No.
Do I believe that in future, I will meet someone for the first time, and I will deliberately commit my whole life - all that I am and all that I have, to her? No. Certainly, not. Do I believe that in future, I will see someone for the first time, and I will make an informed decision to protect, to provide for, to respect and to cherish someone as long as I live? No. I am sure I will not.
From initial feelings (beyond one's control) to life-long commitment (deliberate decision)
Do I believe: (a) I would meet someone, (b) and at first sight, the both of us become mutually attracted/ connected to each other, (c) and after getting to know each other more deeply, we find ourselves compatible/ complimentary to each other in the key areas, (d) and after careful considerations, we decide to commit exclusively to each other in a life-long relationship?
Yes. I believe.
The first part of point (b) though, may read alternately as "after meeting each other over several occasions" rather than "and at first sight".
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