FALSE TEACHING AND THE SELFISH DESIRES OF MAN
contendforthefaith wrote:
Beware of Wolves in sheep clothings. They will use false teaching to feed the selfish desires of Christian or fake Christian who does not love the Truth but chose to have itchy ears to give themselves to false doctrine so that their desires can be met.
Lip Kee's comment:
I totally agree with you. I also do not condone, support or subscribe to teachings that do nothing but cater to man's selfish desires.
The ministry I love so much in New Creation Church is one that points us to Jesus Christ as our Shepherd, in Whom ALL our needs can be met, in Whom there is no want, in Whom we can find the provision, protection and peace we desire, and to Whom we are to give all the glory and honor.
I don't know about you, but I know and admit that I have needs and desires (of which, I am not proud to say so, many are selfish ones).
The way I see it, having needs and desires is not a sin. It is just human nature. For me, the concern is not so much about us having needs and desires, but more about how we deal with our needs and desires.
Personally, I don't see the desires to be healthy and wealthy as sinful lusts. I see them as normal inborn inclinations of every normal human being - in-built mechanisms of the human brain (designed by God, I would dare say) to ensure the fruitfulness and multiplication of the human race on the Earth - remember God's command to man in Genesis 1:28?
If my ancestors did not have the desires for heath and wealth, and if they did not act on those desires by taking the necessary actions to provide for and to protect themselves, I am sure I won't be here typing this blog entry now. :-)
The way I see it, it is only when people value and pursue those earthly needs and desires above God and His Will and Plan for them (to be loved by God, and in response, to love God and others), that those needs and desires become sinful lusts.
Some of us think that we should teach people to deny or control their needs and desires. While others believe that we should point people to Jesus so that they can find ALL fulfillment and contentment in, and give ALL thanks and honor to Him.
I am with the second group.
THE TEACHING OF "CORRECT" DOCTRINES
contendforthefaith wrote:
Whether you love the pastor anot is not the key issue. The Key issue is the Pastor teaching correct doctrine.
Lip Kee's comment:
I don't have any illusion that the doctrines preached by my pastor in my church are 100% perfect and correct all the time. I know and admit that my church is not a perfect church. I know and admit that my pastor is not a perfect minister of the Word.
But I also know that if not for this imperfect pastor in this imperfect church, I would not have fallen so much in love with Jesus Christ and His Word. That is why I love my pastor and the church he leads so much.
I may decide to go to another church, if you could show me a church in which there is a perfect pastor who preaches perfectly the correct and perfect doctrines all the time. Until then, I think I will stay put, worship joyfully and serve faithfully in New Creation Church under the leadership of Pastor Joseph Prince. :)
contendforthefaith wrote:
Do not deceive yourself. Most prosperity church members like to deceive themselves that prosperity teaching is a good doctrine and that God wants to make Christian get rich. This is FALSE and there are bible proves againist it.
Lip Kee's comment:
I do not know why you label my church as a "prosperity church".
I see my church as a Gospel church, as a Jesus church. In our church, we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news of Jesus Christ, Who is the Lord of ALL - the Lord of every world and every realm, including the spiritual and the physical/material realms.
Do you regard "prosperity" and "wealth" as unholy words? Do you think that people who talk about "prosperity" and "wealth" in church are ungodly people?
Or do you believe that it is possible for a person to talk about "prosperity" and "wealth" in church and still be a Christ-centered, God-glorifying and Holy-Spirit-Honoring person?
I hope you are not offended that I've pray for you, your loved ones, and your church the following prayer (based on 3 John 2): "Beloveds, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your souls prosper".
A REAL MAN OF GOD
contendforthefaith wrote:
If pastor is REAL man of GOD and does not betray Christianity, he should repent and decreas salary at once and not give excuses and blame others and see first. he mentioned that he will see first. It is sad as he does not have a good name now as he have taken 500k for a few yrs, he is a millionaire pastor, unlike Paul and Peter, issiah, who have their head behead, body sawn apart. whether he is real man of GOD, God knows.
Lip Kee's comment:
I don't begrudge a top doctor her million-dollar income, and I don't question her integrity, even though I personally believe that a REAL doctor is supposed be compassionate and must genuinely want to help people even without any monetary compensation.
I don't begrudge a top artist his million dollar paycheck, and I don't cast doubt on his character, even though I believe that a TRUE artist should never paint for the sake of money but only purely for the sake of his love for the arts.
How many times have we seen this happen in the world we are living in: when a man excels in what he loves to do, and is gifted to do, the monetary reward follows.
Michael Jordan did not play basketball because of money. He played because he loved the game of basketball. And because he played well, the money came. David Beckam does not play footaball because of money. He plays football because he is good at it and he enjoys it. And because he excels in the game, the financial rewards follow.
In Pastor Prince, I see a man who started serving God and studying the Bible since he was a teenager and when the church he was serving in was just a small gathering of young believers. I see a TRUE man of God who loves the Lord and loves preaching the Word. I do not see a man who teaches and preaches because of money. I see a REAL pastor who teaches and preaches because he loves doing so, and because he believes he is called by God to do so.
Personally, I greatly respect and honor Pastor Prince, and I think he deserves more than what he has been paid by the church.
If the church were to decide to stop paying him his salary, I will start to give free-will offering to him, over and above my regular tithe to the church. Yes, I will do so, because I respect and honor the man, and I believe in sowing into his ministry.
But this is purely my personal conviction and I don't insist that others must agree with me on this matter.
Stay rested and blessed. :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the comments page in my other blog hosted at mutliply.com: http://lipkee.multiply.com/journal/item/117
Showing posts with label joseph prince. Show all posts
Showing posts with label joseph prince. Show all posts
Sunday, April 5, 2009
Friday, April 3, 2009
On "controversial" salary , "wrong" explanation, and "incorrect" actions - a dialogue
HOW MUCH SHOULD A PASTOR BE PAID?
maic123 asked:
"Would that...mean that because [Pastor Prince] does such a great job, he should be paid a high salary?"
Lip Kee's comment:
To be sure, I am not the one who decides Pastor Prince's salary. I don't know how his salary was decided. Maybe it is a fixed amount. Maybe it is based on the total collection by the church. I don't know.
As to how much Pastor Prince SHOULD be paid, I suppose everyone will have his own benchmark. Personally, because I received so much from his ministry, I believe he should not be paid less then some of the cabinet ministers in Singapore. But of course, this is just my personal opinion. I don't claim to represent anyone other than myself. :)
I think if I were to ask the question to 100 persons, I would probably get 101 different answers.
How much do you think he should be paid? What is your benchmark? Would you care to explain why you think your benchmark is a better one compared to mine? (For convenience sake and for the purpose of this discussion, I would use a cabinet minister's pay as the benchmark).
WHO USED THE WORD "PEANUTS" TO DESCRIBE THE PAY?
maic123 asked:
"However, for some NCC defenders to claim that because PP brings in 95% of church Rev, because PP is responsible for explosive growth of NCC...etc therefore $500k is peanuts..."
Lip Kee's comment:
I would appreciate it if you could let me know who was the person who used the word "peanuts"? I know I didn't. I know it's a very sensitive word. Almost a vulgar word, I would say.
maic123 asked:
"It is God that gave the growth, it is God that provided the members wealth, it is God that touched members hearts to give. PP is merely the instrument."
Lip Kee's comment:
I totally agree with you. :)
HOW ARE WE TO COMPARE THE REWARDS AMONG THE DIFFERENT SERVERS OF GOD?
maic123 asked:
"If the rational is to reward the instrument, how about the missionaries who sacrified their lives going to dangerous countries to spread the gospel, living in porvety and giving up their all for God, don't they deserve to be paid more than PP?"
Lip Kee's comment:
I am sorry I will not be able to give you an answer.
I respect everyone who serves God. I cherish every precious life.
But I am not the one who decides on Pastor Prince's pay check amount. I am also not the person responsible for determining the pay check (or lack of one) for the missionaries, whom I highly respect.
More importantly, I don't think it is appropriate for me to use the size of monetary reward to measure the worthiness of any servers of God.
Who am I to say that I, who serve as a caregroup leader should deserve to be blessed more than another believer who serves as an usher in church? Who am I to decide that my friend, who is a pastor of a small church in Singapore should deserve more pay than a house church leader in China?
All I can only say is that the missionaries who serve God deserve my full respect. And Pastor Prince deserves my full respect. But of course, this is just my personal opinion. I don't pretend to represent anyone other than myself. :)
maic123 wrote:
Sorry I used the word peanuts. I added the word myself to sort of summarize the meaning I thought some of the defenders of NCC was trying to convey, that 500k salary is nothing compared to what Pastor Prince has done.
Lip Kee's comment:
Apology accepted. :)
A FEW POINTERS ON COMMUNICATING ACCURATELY
Just to share some lessons I've learned about communication (from my past work experiences as a police investigator and an auditor):
Always stick to the facts. Do not assume. Do not speculate. Do not allege. Do not accuse. Make sure. Seek to clarify the facts if unsure. Ask questions. Do research. Check and re-check. Stick to the facts.
And when expressing a personal view or opinion, I would state so clearly. i would qualify my statement using words such as "my view", "my opinion". i would make it clear that I am NOT presenting objective facts, but subjective views and opinions.
If I believe my view or opinion has the potential of being controversial, I would weigh the words I use very carefully. I would remind myself not to come across as being judgmental. I will apply the golden rule and be respectful (not diplomatic) and gentle (not soft).
HOW SHOULD THE CHURCH COUNCIL RESPOND TO THE PRESS QUERY?
maic123 wrote:
However, in the explanation given by the church to justify his salary, the church basically is saying that Pastor Prince is "responsible" for the church income and enriched the church, so he certainly deserves that salary due to the results he is producing. I think that is wrong. It is God that produces the result.
Lip Kee's comment:
Please bear in mind that Deacon Matthew Kang made those statements in response to The Straits Times' query on NCC's staff salary. See the full reply here: http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/media_coverage/NCCreply_to_ST_300309.pdf
Now, let's put yourself in Deacon Matthew Kang's position. The Straits Times refers you to the church's annual report and asks you about the church staff who drew an annual salary of between $500k to $550k as reported in the annual report for the financial year ended 31 March 2008.
How will you respond to the query?
Please bear in mind that you are representing the church, and you are talking to a secular press. Now, what would you say: "No comment"; "No specific reason"; "God told us to give that amount"?
Deacon Matthew Kang had to give an explanation. And he had to give an explanation that the secular press and the public at large could understand. Wouldn't you agree? He had to make a statement. A "sensible and reasonable" one (for the secular press and the general public, not just for the church and believers).
If you were in his shoe, what kind of a "sensible and reasonable" statement would you make?
WOULD A MONTHLY INCOME OF $18,000 STUMBLE YOU?
maic123 wrote:
However, should this salary be too controversial and it causes other brothers to fall in sin, then its better not to exercise that freedom.
Lip Kee's comment:
Hmm...why would a salary that is "too controversial" cause other brothers to "fall in sin"? What kind of "sin" are you referring to? Would you care to explain or clarify?
I suggest we take a step back and look at the bigger picture:
Pastor Prince received an annual salary of around $550k from NCC in the last financial year (i.e. from April 2007 to March 2008). We do not know how much he tithed. He shared with the congregation he gives more than 10% per month. But let's assume he tithed only 10%. In that case, he would have given around $55k to the church from April 2007 to March 2008.
During the period from September 2007 to February 2009, he gave to the church $563k for the building fund (Note: This was also reported in The Straits Times article, but strangely, no one seems to have taken notice of it).
Now, let's assume Pastor Prince received a similar amount of salary and tithed 10% of that amount for the financial year ended March 2009 , he would have received $550k and given $55k for the period from April 2008 to March 2009.
So, based on the assumptions above, over the past two financial years, Pastor Prince would have received a total of $1.1m from NCC, and given $673k back to NCC, giving him a net income from NCC of $427k over two years.
This works out to be around $213.5k per year (or a monthly income of $17.8k). Is this amount still considered too high, or reasonable, or too low? Would this still be "too controversial"? Would it still cause other brothers "to fall into sin"?
WHO HAVE BEEN STUMBLED, TO WHAT EXTENT THEY HAVE BEEN STUMBLED, AND WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD DO FOR THEM
maic123 wrote:
So it is my opinion that the church is incorrect to -
1. Justify his salary using the results Pastor Prince produced.
2. Insisting that he take the salary, as a result causing this controversy. Look at the asiaone forum, I do think it is stumbling some Christians and causing some to be a very poor testimony of what a born again Christian is like.
Lip Kee's comment:
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
I acknowledge that there are quite a lot of people talking about this matter. I also acknowledge that there are Christians who have expressed strong views about the pay Pastor Prince received, and some of the Christians (supporters as well as detractors of NCC) who were involved in the public discussion (e.g. in the AsiaOne forum) had displayed what I believe many of us would consider as immature, irresponsible and un-gentlemanly behavior.
But exactly how many Christians have really been stumbled, and to what extent they have been stumbled, I do not know.
Do you personally know of any Christian who has suffered a crisis of faith, or left church, or abandon God because of the news report? If so, would you care to bring them to my attention or the attention of the church, so that we could help them, counsel them, or pray for them?
Regardless of whether we are able to identify the ones who have been stumbled, my suggestion is that we pray for them, and trust God to strengthen their faith. :)
Shalom.
Note: the original discussion took place in my other blog hosted at multiply.com:
http://lipkee.multiply.com/journal/item/117/Half_a_million_dollar_paid_to_pastor_-_some_discussions?replies_read=9
maic123 asked:
"Would that...mean that because [Pastor Prince] does such a great job, he should be paid a high salary?"
Lip Kee's comment:
To be sure, I am not the one who decides Pastor Prince's salary. I don't know how his salary was decided. Maybe it is a fixed amount. Maybe it is based on the total collection by the church. I don't know.
As to how much Pastor Prince SHOULD be paid, I suppose everyone will have his own benchmark. Personally, because I received so much from his ministry, I believe he should not be paid less then some of the cabinet ministers in Singapore. But of course, this is just my personal opinion. I don't claim to represent anyone other than myself. :)
I think if I were to ask the question to 100 persons, I would probably get 101 different answers.
How much do you think he should be paid? What is your benchmark? Would you care to explain why you think your benchmark is a better one compared to mine? (For convenience sake and for the purpose of this discussion, I would use a cabinet minister's pay as the benchmark).
WHO USED THE WORD "PEANUTS" TO DESCRIBE THE PAY?
maic123 asked:
"However, for some NCC defenders to claim that because PP brings in 95% of church Rev, because PP is responsible for explosive growth of NCC...etc therefore $500k is peanuts..."
Lip Kee's comment:
I would appreciate it if you could let me know who was the person who used the word "peanuts"? I know I didn't. I know it's a very sensitive word. Almost a vulgar word, I would say.
maic123 asked:
"It is God that gave the growth, it is God that provided the members wealth, it is God that touched members hearts to give. PP is merely the instrument."
Lip Kee's comment:
I totally agree with you. :)
HOW ARE WE TO COMPARE THE REWARDS AMONG THE DIFFERENT SERVERS OF GOD?
maic123 asked:
"If the rational is to reward the instrument, how about the missionaries who sacrified their lives going to dangerous countries to spread the gospel, living in porvety and giving up their all for God, don't they deserve to be paid more than PP?"
Lip Kee's comment:
I am sorry I will not be able to give you an answer.
I respect everyone who serves God. I cherish every precious life.
But I am not the one who decides on Pastor Prince's pay check amount. I am also not the person responsible for determining the pay check (or lack of one) for the missionaries, whom I highly respect.
More importantly, I don't think it is appropriate for me to use the size of monetary reward to measure the worthiness of any servers of God.
Who am I to say that I, who serve as a caregroup leader should deserve to be blessed more than another believer who serves as an usher in church? Who am I to decide that my friend, who is a pastor of a small church in Singapore should deserve more pay than a house church leader in China?
All I can only say is that the missionaries who serve God deserve my full respect. And Pastor Prince deserves my full respect. But of course, this is just my personal opinion. I don't pretend to represent anyone other than myself. :)
maic123 wrote:
Sorry I used the word peanuts. I added the word myself to sort of summarize the meaning I thought some of the defenders of NCC was trying to convey, that 500k salary is nothing compared to what Pastor Prince has done.
Lip Kee's comment:
Apology accepted. :)
A FEW POINTERS ON COMMUNICATING ACCURATELY
Just to share some lessons I've learned about communication (from my past work experiences as a police investigator and an auditor):
Always stick to the facts. Do not assume. Do not speculate. Do not allege. Do not accuse. Make sure. Seek to clarify the facts if unsure. Ask questions. Do research. Check and re-check. Stick to the facts.
And when expressing a personal view or opinion, I would state so clearly. i would qualify my statement using words such as "my view", "my opinion". i would make it clear that I am NOT presenting objective facts, but subjective views and opinions.
If I believe my view or opinion has the potential of being controversial, I would weigh the words I use very carefully. I would remind myself not to come across as being judgmental. I will apply the golden rule and be respectful (not diplomatic) and gentle (not soft).
HOW SHOULD THE CHURCH COUNCIL RESPOND TO THE PRESS QUERY?
maic123 wrote:
However, in the explanation given by the church to justify his salary, the church basically is saying that Pastor Prince is "responsible" for the church income and enriched the church, so he certainly deserves that salary due to the results he is producing. I think that is wrong. It is God that produces the result.
Lip Kee's comment:
Please bear in mind that Deacon Matthew Kang made those statements in response to The Straits Times' query on NCC's staff salary. See the full reply here: http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/media_coverage/NCCreply_to_ST_300309.pdf
Now, let's put yourself in Deacon Matthew Kang's position. The Straits Times refers you to the church's annual report and asks you about the church staff who drew an annual salary of between $500k to $550k as reported in the annual report for the financial year ended 31 March 2008.
How will you respond to the query?
Please bear in mind that you are representing the church, and you are talking to a secular press. Now, what would you say: "No comment"; "No specific reason"; "God told us to give that amount"?
Deacon Matthew Kang had to give an explanation. And he had to give an explanation that the secular press and the public at large could understand. Wouldn't you agree? He had to make a statement. A "sensible and reasonable" one (for the secular press and the general public, not just for the church and believers).
If you were in his shoe, what kind of a "sensible and reasonable" statement would you make?
WOULD A MONTHLY INCOME OF $18,000 STUMBLE YOU?
maic123 wrote:
However, should this salary be too controversial and it causes other brothers to fall in sin, then its better not to exercise that freedom.
Lip Kee's comment:
Hmm...why would a salary that is "too controversial" cause other brothers to "fall in sin"? What kind of "sin" are you referring to? Would you care to explain or clarify?
I suggest we take a step back and look at the bigger picture:
Pastor Prince received an annual salary of around $550k from NCC in the last financial year (i.e. from April 2007 to March 2008). We do not know how much he tithed. He shared with the congregation he gives more than 10% per month. But let's assume he tithed only 10%. In that case, he would have given around $55k to the church from April 2007 to March 2008.
During the period from September 2007 to February 2009, he gave to the church $563k for the building fund (Note: This was also reported in The Straits Times article, but strangely, no one seems to have taken notice of it).
Now, let's assume Pastor Prince received a similar amount of salary and tithed 10% of that amount for the financial year ended March 2009 , he would have received $550k and given $55k for the period from April 2008 to March 2009.
So, based on the assumptions above, over the past two financial years, Pastor Prince would have received a total of $1.1m from NCC, and given $673k back to NCC, giving him a net income from NCC of $427k over two years.
This works out to be around $213.5k per year (or a monthly income of $17.8k). Is this amount still considered too high, or reasonable, or too low? Would this still be "too controversial"? Would it still cause other brothers "to fall into sin"?
WHO HAVE BEEN STUMBLED, TO WHAT EXTENT THEY HAVE BEEN STUMBLED, AND WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD DO FOR THEM
maic123 wrote:
So it is my opinion that the church is incorrect to -
1. Justify his salary using the results Pastor Prince produced.
2. Insisting that he take the salary, as a result causing this controversy. Look at the asiaone forum, I do think it is stumbling some Christians and causing some to be a very poor testimony of what a born again Christian is like.
Lip Kee's comment:
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
I acknowledge that there are quite a lot of people talking about this matter. I also acknowledge that there are Christians who have expressed strong views about the pay Pastor Prince received, and some of the Christians (supporters as well as detractors of NCC) who were involved in the public discussion (e.g. in the AsiaOne forum) had displayed what I believe many of us would consider as immature, irresponsible and un-gentlemanly behavior.
But exactly how many Christians have really been stumbled, and to what extent they have been stumbled, I do not know.
Do you personally know of any Christian who has suffered a crisis of faith, or left church, or abandon God because of the news report? If so, would you care to bring them to my attention or the attention of the church, so that we could help them, counsel them, or pray for them?
Regardless of whether we are able to identify the ones who have been stumbled, my suggestion is that we pray for them, and trust God to strengthen their faith. :)
Shalom.
Note: the original discussion took place in my other blog hosted at multiply.com:
http://lipkee.multiply.com/journal/item/117/Half_a_million_dollar_paid_to_pastor_-_some_discussions?replies_read=9
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Why I love and support my church and my pastor
Because the loveliness of the Lord Jesus Christ is so gloriously revealed and exalted in New Creation Church by Pastor Prince.
Because the perfection of the Lord's work on the Cross is so clearly explained and expounded upon in New Creation Church by Pastor Prince.
Because of the teaching and preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ such as the following:
- Will the real Christianity please stand up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lue7bhcK0&feature=related
- Supernatural transformation and holiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYoXwPQDYoY&feature=related
- Aleph Tav - Jesus' signature in the Bible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6470TSfP9Pk&feature=channel_page
- The root cause of your problem is condemnation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCUby8b1zl4&feature=related
- Grace flows in worry-free areas of your life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEgNqDcMXYE&feature=related
Because in Singapore and all around the world, people's lives are being impacted and transformed by the ministry:
- Read the comments left on the wall of Joseph Prince Ministry facebook homepage:
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=5718674446
- Read the readers' reviews on the book "Destined to Reign":
* amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Destined-Reign-Effortless-Wholeness-Victorious/product-reviews/1577949323/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
* christianbook.com: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/971615642?item_no=949329&show_all_cr=1&event=PR#customer_reviews
* harrisonhouse.com: http://www.harrisonhouse.com/BookDetails.aspx?ISBN=9781577949329
- Read the testimonies from people blessed by the church and the ministry:
* New Creation Church: http://www.newcreation.org.sg/testimonies/testimonies.htm
* Joseph Prince Ministry: http://www.josephprince.org/resources/praisereports/praisereports.htm
- Read online report and blog post on the influence of Pastor Prince's ministry on other ministries and pastors:
* christianpost.com: http://sg.christianpost.com/dbase.php?cat=education&id=701
* blogpastor.com: http://www.blogpastor.net/2009/03/02/eating-the-flesh-of-joseph-prince/
Because God loves His Son Jesus Christ, and God loves New Creation Church and Pastor Prince, and God loves you and I too. :)
Shalom!
Because the perfection of the Lord's work on the Cross is so clearly explained and expounded upon in New Creation Church by Pastor Prince.
Because of the teaching and preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ such as the following:
- Will the real Christianity please stand up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lue7bhcK0&feature=related
- Supernatural transformation and holiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYoXwPQDYoY&feature=related
- Aleph Tav - Jesus' signature in the Bible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6470TSfP9Pk&feature=channel_page
- The root cause of your problem is condemnation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCUby8b1zl4&feature=related
- Grace flows in worry-free areas of your life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEgNqDcMXYE&feature=related
Because in Singapore and all around the world, people's lives are being impacted and transformed by the ministry:
- Read the comments left on the wall of Joseph Prince Ministry facebook homepage:
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=5718674446
- Read the readers' reviews on the book "Destined to Reign":
* amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Destined-Reign-Effortless-Wholeness-Victorious/product-reviews/1577949323/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
* christianbook.com: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/971615642?item_no=949329&show_all_cr=1&event=PR#customer_reviews
* harrisonhouse.com: http://www.harrisonhouse.com/BookDetails.aspx?ISBN=9781577949329
- Read the testimonies from people blessed by the church and the ministry:
* New Creation Church: http://www.newcreation.org.sg/testimonies/testimonies.htm
* Joseph Prince Ministry: http://www.josephprince.org/resources/praisereports/praisereports.htm
- Read online report and blog post on the influence of Pastor Prince's ministry on other ministries and pastors:
* christianpost.com: http://sg.christianpost.com/dbase.php?cat=education&id=701
* blogpastor.com: http://www.blogpastor.net/2009/03/02/eating-the-flesh-of-joseph-prince/
Because God loves His Son Jesus Christ, and God loves New Creation Church and Pastor Prince, and God loves you and I too. :)
Shalom!
Wednesday, April 1, 2009
The Sumptuous Dinner and the Chef - a Parable
Just like to share with you a brilliant parable written by my fellow blogger friend Stanley Wong. Enjoy! : )
----------------------------------------
A FAMILY DINNER
originally published in Stanley's blog.
Last night, to celebrate April Fool's Day, I took my family out for dinner at a very nice restaurant in the city. The waitress led us to a table and we sat down and waited for her to hand us the menu. However after some time, we still did not receive the menu. I managed to catch the attention of the waitress and asked her for the menu. She replied,"I am sorry, sir. In honour of April Fool's Day, our restaurant is serving only the Chef's Special Set Dinner today. Your dinner will be served shortly."
True enough, while the waitress was still explaining to us, the first dish arrived. All in all, we were served a seven course dinner plus dessert (mango pudding). Man, was the dinner good! We thoroughly enjoyed the food and my kids were pestering me to come again soon, even though we still haven't left the restaurant yet!
Then suddenly, something caught my mind: I had not asked about the price of the dinner! I quickly signaled to the waitress for the bill and crossed my fingers that I have enough money in my wallet to pay for it. To my surprise, the waitress walked over empty-handed and said,"We have no fixed price for our set dinner, sir. You just pay us whatever you want."
My surprise turned into shock. I thought this was too good to be true. Could this be an April Fool's Day joke? I asked,"Is it ok even if I pay $2?" "Yes, sir. Any amount you pay is fine with us." came the smiling reply. Of course, I didn't pay $2 but I did give what I thought was an appropriate amount.
I asked the waitress,"I am curious. Since the customer can pay any amount he wants, how much does your chef actually earn a year?" She replied, "$500,000". I was flabbergasted; "What? $500,000 just to cook food? This is too much! I am never coming to this restaurant again!"
My dear wife (God bless her) said to me,"Darling, we really enjoyed the dinner just now, didn't we? How much did you pay for it? Just $20, not $500,000! For a seven course dinner plus dessert! Why should you be concerned about how much the chef earns?"
----------------------------------------
A FAMILY DINNER
originally published in Stanley's blog.
Last night, to celebrate April Fool's Day, I took my family out for dinner at a very nice restaurant in the city. The waitress led us to a table and we sat down and waited for her to hand us the menu. However after some time, we still did not receive the menu. I managed to catch the attention of the waitress and asked her for the menu. She replied,"I am sorry, sir. In honour of April Fool's Day, our restaurant is serving only the Chef's Special Set Dinner today. Your dinner will be served shortly."
True enough, while the waitress was still explaining to us, the first dish arrived. All in all, we were served a seven course dinner plus dessert (mango pudding). Man, was the dinner good! We thoroughly enjoyed the food and my kids were pestering me to come again soon, even though we still haven't left the restaurant yet!
Then suddenly, something caught my mind: I had not asked about the price of the dinner! I quickly signaled to the waitress for the bill and crossed my fingers that I have enough money in my wallet to pay for it. To my surprise, the waitress walked over empty-handed and said,"We have no fixed price for our set dinner, sir. You just pay us whatever you want."
My surprise turned into shock. I thought this was too good to be true. Could this be an April Fool's Day joke? I asked,"Is it ok even if I pay $2?" "Yes, sir. Any amount you pay is fine with us." came the smiling reply. Of course, I didn't pay $2 but I did give what I thought was an appropriate amount.
I asked the waitress,"I am curious. Since the customer can pay any amount he wants, how much does your chef actually earn a year?" She replied, "$500,000". I was flabbergasted; "What? $500,000 just to cook food? This is too much! I am never coming to this restaurant again!"
My dear wife (God bless her) said to me,"Darling, we really enjoyed the dinner just now, didn't we? How much did you pay for it? Just $20, not $500,000! For a seven course dinner plus dessert! Why should you be concerned about how much the chef earns?"
Monday, March 30, 2009
$0.5m annual salary for pastor - a discussion
BoredToDeath asked:
Without PP, how much do you think the church can generate? More or less than GOD?
Lip Kee replied:
To be totally honest with you, I believe that without Pastor Prince, NCC will not be where it is right now.
This is just a personal conviction. I cannot prove or disprove it. (In a way, this is similar to some people's view that Singapore will not be where it is now without MM Lee. This view too cannot be proven or unproven).
Personally, I am convinced that NCC is growing so rapidly and the people are giving so willingly and generously because Pastor Prince is able to reveal and exalt Jesus Christ so effectively.
Again, this is just my personal conviction. That is why I am still a member of the church and I am regularly giving a good portion of my income to the church.
I am not here to debate or challenge anyone who holds a different view from me. I am just here to present a view - from a church member's perspective.
I just want to let the readers here know that there are people like me, a member of the church who is totally happy with how things are. :-)
And as I've written previously, anyone who is in the church and is unhappy about the pastor's salary can always choose to reduce/stop his/her giving to the church or to leave the church.
And anyone who is currently NOT in the church and are NOT giving to the church, is free to continue to NOT to step into the church and NOT to give a single cent.
Democratic, yeah? :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=10
-------------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
Where is God in this, I thought it was God who blesses a church and therefore it grows. Or is it because someone reveals christ?
Lip Kee replied:
I agree with you totally it is God who blesses the church.
The way I see it, for NCC, God blesses us with a gifted preacher who is able to effectively reveal and exalt the Lord Jesus Christ in people's lives. And through this gift of a preacher, NCC is blessed and is a blessing. Hence, the growth and influence.
Please note that I am NOT claiming that Pastor Prince is THE only gifted preacher. I believe there are many gifted preachers, and NCC is blessed with one of them.
As He Is So Am I commented:
As for voting why not vote with a real ballot. Isn't that what a vote is for? I believe that the 20000 church goers should have option (c)
(c) submit a vote of approval or rejection of JP pay.
(d) if unsatisfied, submit a vote of no confidence in the council and elect a board consisting solely of independent and unpaid volunteers.
But will the 20000 pull this off? Legally is this possible?
Lip Kee replied:
NCC has voting members who attend the AGM and vote on matters concerning the church, including that of the appointment of the church council members. The council members are the ones who decide on the salary of the pastor.
I believe this kind of an arrangement is not unlike what is being done for many other church and non-church organizations.
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=11
-----------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
So option (c) is not a valid option at this time? Which brings me to the following questions
Firstly I would like to ask how council members are selected and elected since they determine the salary of the pastor.
Secondly in all my years at NCC I have never voted, so please enlighten me how does one qualify to be a voting member and how many voting members does NCC have?
And as a member of the church, I am asking you why not have a third option of voting on it. If 20000 agree to give x amount to the senior pastor, no one in Singapore can continue to complain.
Lip Kee replied:
These are valid questions.
Different churches adopt different types of system of governance. Prebyeterian churches have theirs which differs from the Methodist churches.
NCC has chosen a system of governance that empowers voting members to choose the members of a church council who deliberates and decides on matters concerning the church.
There are many practical issues to consider, e.g. What matter should be decided by the church council and which issues should be decided by a church-wide voting? Who among the 20,000 should be considered a member? How should membership be determined - by attendance/ commitment in terms of serving/ tithing record etc? How does the church decide on granting voting membership?
If you are a member of the church, you may want to approach the church office to clarify these matters. I don't think this is the proper forum for this discussion.
In any case, if a person who does not attend NCC and who did not give a single cent to the church chooses to be unhappy and complain about the pastor's pay, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it, since this is a free country. :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=12
-----------------------------
Magenta commented:
Yes, never voted in my life... be it for the elections, at shareholders' meeting or church councils. Not that it matters anyway.... but NCCians are practically free to vote with their feet or pocket.
Lip Kee's response:
I agree with you.
I have voted and I have raised questions during the AGMs I've attended.
But I totally agree with you that the most practical and the best way to vote is with our pocket and our feet.
If we don't like what we see or hear in NCC, we can simply choose to stop dropping those cash/cheques into the bags/boxes, or we can simply stop going to the church.
As far as I know, no one is forcing any person to go to NCC or to give to the church.
Just to clarify in case there is any misinformation/ misunderstanding, in NCC, we don't use GIRO for our giving - i.e. we don't have our money deducted from our bank accounts automatically every month. The way we give in NCC is by physically dropping cash or cheques into the tithing/ offering bags/boxes when we are in church.
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=13
------------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
I find it a bit disheartnening that the only recourse to the 20000 givers who gave to the building is to vote with their feet.
If we are committed enough to give to the building and commited enough to tithe, why are we not enabled to vote on such a matter of conscience?
Lip Kee replied:
To be very honest with you, even though I am a member with voting right at the church AGMs, I still believe that the most practical and effective way to vote is with my time and money I decide to commit to the church.
When we talk about voting, we need to bear in mind the practical limitations and implications. Do we really want to get involved in the daily operational and administrative matters of the church? Do we want all 20,000 of us to review and vote on the pay of all the full-time staff, which pastor's salary to be raised and by how much, which overseas ministries to sow into, which charities to support, which guest speakers to invite, what type of renovation/construction works on our old and new venues be granted the go-ahead etc. etc. Where do we start and stop?
For me, I choose to trust in the Shepherd our Lord Jesus Christ to watch over our church, the church council and our pastors. If I sense that the church leaders are no longer doing God's work but are doing things for ulterior motives, I will not hesitate to leave the church.
Nevertheless, if you strongly wish to exercise church membership rights and responsibilities, I would encourage you to check and clarify the matter with the church office directly.
Shalom!
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?p=229248&posted=1#post229248
Without PP, how much do you think the church can generate? More or less than GOD?
Lip Kee replied:
To be totally honest with you, I believe that without Pastor Prince, NCC will not be where it is right now.
This is just a personal conviction. I cannot prove or disprove it. (In a way, this is similar to some people's view that Singapore will not be where it is now without MM Lee. This view too cannot be proven or unproven).
Personally, I am convinced that NCC is growing so rapidly and the people are giving so willingly and generously because Pastor Prince is able to reveal and exalt Jesus Christ so effectively.
Again, this is just my personal conviction. That is why I am still a member of the church and I am regularly giving a good portion of my income to the church.
I am not here to debate or challenge anyone who holds a different view from me. I am just here to present a view - from a church member's perspective.
I just want to let the readers here know that there are people like me, a member of the church who is totally happy with how things are. :-)
And as I've written previously, anyone who is in the church and is unhappy about the pastor's salary can always choose to reduce/stop his/her giving to the church or to leave the church.
And anyone who is currently NOT in the church and are NOT giving to the church, is free to continue to NOT to step into the church and NOT to give a single cent.
Democratic, yeah? :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=10
-------------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
Where is God in this, I thought it was God who blesses a church and therefore it grows. Or is it because someone reveals christ?
Lip Kee replied:
I agree with you totally it is God who blesses the church.
The way I see it, for NCC, God blesses us with a gifted preacher who is able to effectively reveal and exalt the Lord Jesus Christ in people's lives. And through this gift of a preacher, NCC is blessed and is a blessing. Hence, the growth and influence.
Please note that I am NOT claiming that Pastor Prince is THE only gifted preacher. I believe there are many gifted preachers, and NCC is blessed with one of them.
As He Is So Am I commented:
As for voting why not vote with a real ballot. Isn't that what a vote is for? I believe that the 20000 church goers should have option (c)
(c) submit a vote of approval or rejection of JP pay.
(d) if unsatisfied, submit a vote of no confidence in the council and elect a board consisting solely of independent and unpaid volunteers.
But will the 20000 pull this off? Legally is this possible?
Lip Kee replied:
NCC has voting members who attend the AGM and vote on matters concerning the church, including that of the appointment of the church council members. The council members are the ones who decide on the salary of the pastor.
I believe this kind of an arrangement is not unlike what is being done for many other church and non-church organizations.
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=11
-----------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
So option (c) is not a valid option at this time? Which brings me to the following questions
Firstly I would like to ask how council members are selected and elected since they determine the salary of the pastor.
Secondly in all my years at NCC I have never voted, so please enlighten me how does one qualify to be a voting member and how many voting members does NCC have?
And as a member of the church, I am asking you why not have a third option of voting on it. If 20000 agree to give x amount to the senior pastor, no one in Singapore can continue to complain.
Lip Kee replied:
These are valid questions.
Different churches adopt different types of system of governance. Prebyeterian churches have theirs which differs from the Methodist churches.
NCC has chosen a system of governance that empowers voting members to choose the members of a church council who deliberates and decides on matters concerning the church.
There are many practical issues to consider, e.g. What matter should be decided by the church council and which issues should be decided by a church-wide voting? Who among the 20,000 should be considered a member? How should membership be determined - by attendance/ commitment in terms of serving/ tithing record etc? How does the church decide on granting voting membership?
If you are a member of the church, you may want to approach the church office to clarify these matters. I don't think this is the proper forum for this discussion.
In any case, if a person who does not attend NCC and who did not give a single cent to the church chooses to be unhappy and complain about the pastor's pay, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it, since this is a free country. :-)
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=12
-----------------------------
Magenta commented:
Yes, never voted in my life... be it for the elections, at shareholders' meeting or church councils. Not that it matters anyway.... but NCCians are practically free to vote with their feet or pocket.
Lip Kee's response:
I agree with you.
I have voted and I have raised questions during the AGMs I've attended.
But I totally agree with you that the most practical and the best way to vote is with our pocket and our feet.
If we don't like what we see or hear in NCC, we can simply choose to stop dropping those cash/cheques into the bags/boxes, or we can simply stop going to the church.
As far as I know, no one is forcing any person to go to NCC or to give to the church.
Just to clarify in case there is any misinformation/ misunderstanding, in NCC, we don't use GIRO for our giving - i.e. we don't have our money deducted from our bank accounts automatically every month. The way we give in NCC is by physically dropping cash or cheques into the tithing/ offering bags/boxes when we are in church.
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=18932&page=13
------------------------
As He Is So Am I commented:
I find it a bit disheartnening that the only recourse to the 20000 givers who gave to the building is to vote with their feet.
If we are committed enough to give to the building and commited enough to tithe, why are we not enabled to vote on such a matter of conscience?
Lip Kee replied:
To be very honest with you, even though I am a member with voting right at the church AGMs, I still believe that the most practical and effective way to vote is with my time and money I decide to commit to the church.
When we talk about voting, we need to bear in mind the practical limitations and implications. Do we really want to get involved in the daily operational and administrative matters of the church? Do we want all 20,000 of us to review and vote on the pay of all the full-time staff, which pastor's salary to be raised and by how much, which overseas ministries to sow into, which charities to support, which guest speakers to invite, what type of renovation/construction works on our old and new venues be granted the go-ahead etc. etc. Where do we start and stop?
For me, I choose to trust in the Shepherd our Lord Jesus Christ to watch over our church, the church council and our pastors. If I sense that the church leaders are no longer doing God's work but are doing things for ulterior motives, I will not hesitate to leave the church.
Nevertheless, if you strongly wish to exercise church membership rights and responsibilities, I would encourage you to check and clarify the matter with the church office directly.
Shalom!
Note: the original discussion took place in the AsiaOne forum page:
http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?p=229248&posted=1#post229248
Sunday, March 29, 2009
$0.5m annual salary for pastor - some thoughts
Church leader gets $500k
The Straits Times
March 30, 2009
By Theresa Tan & Melissa Sim
THE New Creation Church, which made headlines for raising $19 million on one Sunday last month for its upcoming multi-million dollar building, pays good money to its staff too.
The independent church paid one employee between $500,001 and $550,000 in its last financial year, checks by The Straits Times showed.
The church did not confirm if the amount went to its leader, Senior Pastor Joseph Prince, but told The Straits Times that its policy is to 'recognise and reward key contributors to the church and Senior Pastor Prince is the main pillar of our church's growth and revenue'.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_356328.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the full article, which was carried on the front page and continued on page A6 of The Straits Times on Monday, March 30, 2008, Deacon Mathew Kang made the following statement:"Senior Pastor Prince is the key man responsible for bringing in about 95 per cent of our church's income. I must concede that he has enriched the church and not the other way round".
Some critics took issue with that statement. They argued that the church is not about growth and revenue.
I agree with them. The church is not about growth and revenue. And contrary to what some critics may think, in my view, the church is also not about charity and helping people.
For me, the church is ALL about revealing and exalting Christ. I believe that when Jesus Christ is revealed and exalted, people's lives are transformed and they are helped. And when people see Jesus and find help in Him in a church, the church cannot help but grow and prosper.
Pastor Prince has been doing a tremendous job at revealing and exalting Jesus Christ. As a result, people are being helped, and the church is growing and prospering.
Should Pastor Prince not be rewarded for what he has done and is doing for the church and the people? Of course he should. I believe few of us in the church would disagree on this. The question is: how much?
Is the half a million pay package too much or too little?
I agree with Deacon Mathew's view that it is Pastor Prince who enriches the church rather than the other way round. Let's keep in mind that in the previous financial year, the annual pay for Pastor Prince constitutes a mere 1% of the total annual revenue of the church. Now, let us ask ourselves: would the church be able to generate a revenue of $54m, if not for Pastor Prince's teaching and preaching ministry?
If there were to be people in the church who think that the church is paying too much to the pastor, and they are unhappy about it, I believe they are free to vote on the matter, either:
(a) with their hands - i.e. by stopping or reducing their giving to the church; or
(b) with their feet - i.e. by leaving the church.
As for me, I trust the church council's wisdom and decision on the matter.
And I am glad to continue to call New Creation Church my home church and to carry on with my usual tithing and offering :-)
The Straits Times
March 30, 2009
By Theresa Tan & Melissa Sim
THE New Creation Church, which made headlines for raising $19 million on one Sunday last month for its upcoming multi-million dollar building, pays good money to its staff too.
The independent church paid one employee between $500,001 and $550,000 in its last financial year, checks by The Straits Times showed.
The church did not confirm if the amount went to its leader, Senior Pastor Joseph Prince, but told The Straits Times that its policy is to 'recognise and reward key contributors to the church and Senior Pastor Prince is the main pillar of our church's growth and revenue'.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_356328.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the full article, which was carried on the front page and continued on page A6 of The Straits Times on Monday, March 30, 2008, Deacon Mathew Kang made the following statement:"Senior Pastor Prince is the key man responsible for bringing in about 95 per cent of our church's income. I must concede that he has enriched the church and not the other way round".
Some critics took issue with that statement. They argued that the church is not about growth and revenue.
I agree with them. The church is not about growth and revenue. And contrary to what some critics may think, in my view, the church is also not about charity and helping people.
For me, the church is ALL about revealing and exalting Christ. I believe that when Jesus Christ is revealed and exalted, people's lives are transformed and they are helped. And when people see Jesus and find help in Him in a church, the church cannot help but grow and prosper.
Pastor Prince has been doing a tremendous job at revealing and exalting Jesus Christ. As a result, people are being helped, and the church is growing and prospering.
Should Pastor Prince not be rewarded for what he has done and is doing for the church and the people? Of course he should. I believe few of us in the church would disagree on this. The question is: how much?
Is the half a million pay package too much or too little?
I agree with Deacon Mathew's view that it is Pastor Prince who enriches the church rather than the other way round. Let's keep in mind that in the previous financial year, the annual pay for Pastor Prince constitutes a mere 1% of the total annual revenue of the church. Now, let us ask ourselves: would the church be able to generate a revenue of $54m, if not for Pastor Prince's teaching and preaching ministry?
If there were to be people in the church who think that the church is paying too much to the pastor, and they are unhappy about it, I believe they are free to vote on the matter, either:
(a) with their hands - i.e. by stopping or reducing their giving to the church; or
(b) with their feet - i.e. by leaving the church.
As for me, I trust the church council's wisdom and decision on the matter.
And I am glad to continue to call New Creation Church my home church and to carry on with my usual tithing and offering :-)
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